Infinity * Zero = Any Number ARGUE HERE - Page 5

**Shashakiro** · 12-5-2006, 12:24 AM

I don't think the point of mathematics is memorizing, but learning HOW to use the equations properly. You can't easily look stuff up that tells you which equation to use in any given situation.

Anyway, this whole "what's the point of math" thing is for another topic...seeing as it doesn't really have much to do with infinity.

**Squeek** · 12-5-2006, 12:29 AM

Shash, with all due respect, take Calculus in college and then tell me it's not all memorization. Thanks.

There's a reason I've seen about twenty webcomics already with the standard "calculus professor" jokes about impossible equations that you have to do based on memorization and pencil-and-paper skills.

And I thought we already solved this problem? It's pretty obvious to me at least, since mathematicians like making things up to annoy non-mathematicians. Like that whole 0.999....=1 argument. Please.

**itmorr** · 12-5-2006, 12:57 AM

Tons of memorization.

**itmorr** · 12-5-2006, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeek

Tell me if you've gotten to Calculus or beyond yet.

The list of formulas to memorize for derivatives is over 100. Just for derivatives. There are 100 more for integrals. There are probably hundreds more for other things.

Do you honestly see this as necessary? Do you honestly think you can rely on this knowledge if you're in an emergency situation? What if you confuse 1/x with x/1? What if you confuse 2x with x^2? What about cotangent with cosecant?

Professors seem to think you NEED TO KNOW these things, and you're telling me those professions NEED TO KNOW these things, so this is not an unrealistic number of formulas AT ALL.

OH NOT TO MENTION all the rules for finding them. Quotient Rule, Chain Rule, Product Rule, Power Rule. DEFINITELY NOT HARD TO CONFUSE THESE HAHAHAHA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_derivatives

Get memorizing. If you can't tell me what the derivative of 5x^9arccot(6x) +10x^2csc(3) is within five minutes, the world could end. No calculators, please.

Oh and don't confuse any of those with these.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_integrals

Sorry in advance for the double post. Memorizing them all is a pain in the butt, but I think it comes in handy in the long run. A lot of them get super easy though -- you mentioned Quotient Rule, Chain Rule, Product Rule, Power Rule, which aren't hard to remember at all. The ones that trip most people up are probably all the trig identities. In addition to all the memorization, you have to deal with *applying* the derivatives and integrals to things like graphing certain functions. I think it's painful to start, but after learning to walk, running probably becomes a hell of a lot easier.

Also, when it does become super easy, I'm sure it helps to be able to apply the concepts learned in calc to certain jobs and stuff (Besides being a mathematician).

JKPolk · 12-5-2006, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeek

You take arithmetic, then algebra, then geometry. That's all you'll ever, EVER need.

Except for Vector Calculus and partial derivatives, you're right. Oh and integration and derivation.

I need them... I need them all

**Reach** · 12-5-2006, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Why is inf-inf undefinied?

inf = inf
inf - inf = 0

What the hell. I already showed why it is undefined. And so did someone else I think.

As for the is calculus a big waste of time thing, well, it depends on what field you're going into. If you're going into physics you're going to need it because you're going to have to learn more math that is much harder than calculus, but still involves calculus. You're not going to be able to avoid integration, series or derivation in physics. You're going to need tensor calculus to use Einsteins General Relativity and quantum field theory isn't exactly the easiest thing in the world either (actually, by the looks of it both would make you bunch cry like little girls XD). And considering advancements in quantum mechanics and application of the mathematics involved is causing the big boom in computer advancements, I wouldn't call it useless in the least.

People have this really naive notion that calculus is some big end all be all mathematics that is useless. They're wrong...calculus is more like learning to add and subtract and multiply and divide again. Really, that's what calculus is...knowing how to add and subtract in itself, is useless until you apply it to something else. Calculus is the exact same way.

As for math in school, yea, it's stupid and doesn't prove anything. The fact you can't use a calculator is in fact a giant f'ing joke. They're not really proving anything by doing that, other than wasting lots of your time. All of those mathematicians in the field clearly never use calculuators to do any of their work...oh no. Yea right. More like they have access to supercomputers to do absolutely massive calculations for them.

School in general is like that though. It's not really about learning. They don't care about what you actually 'know', they tend to care about what you're able to regurgitate onto a piece of paper from what they've defined as things you should be able to do.

I got 100 on my university calculus exam, but I studied for it and did practice problems I knew would be on the test. And then viola, they threw all kinds of similar questions to ones I had practiced on the exam and I could solve them really easily.

That proved a lot, didn't it?

DDRcrazy5 · 12-5-2006, 09:25 AM

∞∞∞∞∞∞∞ i bet you can't do that!

**Shashakiro** · 12-5-2006, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeek

Shash, with all due respect, take Calculus in college and then tell me it's not all memorization. Thanks.

Took BC in high school, wasn't really all memorization, or even mostly memorization...at least, the harder problems took a lot more than just memorization.

Then again, we only had a few no-calculator tests, and those were mostly towards the beginning when we were learning stuff like basic power rule/chain rule, which you should be able to do in seconds anyway.

I suppose it just depends on the teacher/professor. I had a very good teacher =)

**Squeek** · 12-5-2006, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeek

Shash, with all due respect, take Calculus in college

There's a big difference.

Put it this way. Whereas Reach was able to pass only by knowing similar problems beforehand, I failed because I knew all of the material but managed to get confused or messed up on trigonometric derivatives and integrals.

Long story short: I know Calculus and failed Calculus. Three times.

A2_Sauce · 12-5-2006, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeek

Tell me if you've gotten to Calculus or beyond yet.

The list of formulas to memorize for derivatives is over 100. Just for derivatives. There are 100 more for integrals. There are probably hundreds more for other things.

Do you honestly see this as necessary? Do you honestly think you can rely on this knowledge if you're in an emergency situation? What if you confuse 1/x with x/1? What if you confuse 2x with x^2? What about cotangent with cosecant?

Professors seem to think you NEED TO KNOW these things, and you're telling me those professions NEED TO KNOW these things, so this is not an unrealistic number of formulas AT ALL.

OH NOT TO MENTION all the rules for finding them. Quotient Rule, Chain Rule, Product Rule, Power Rule. DEFINITELY NOT HARD TO CONFUSE THESE HAHAHAHA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_derivatives

Get memorizing. If you can't tell me what the derivative of 5x^9arccot(6x) +10x^2csc(3) is within five minutes, the world could end. No calculators, please.

Oh and don't confuse any of those with these.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_integrals

... i finished calc bc last year, as for deriv's and integrals, you may not need to memorize those, but in many professions, it's useful.

lord_carbo · 12-5-2006, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeek

Tell me if you've gotten to Calculus or beyond yet.

The list of formulas to memorize for derivatives is over 100. Just for derivatives. There are 100 more for integrals. There are probably hundreds more for other things.

Do you honestly see this as necessary? Do you honestly think you can rely on this knowledge if you're in an emergency situation? What if you confuse 1/x with x/1? What if you confuse 2x with x^2? What about cotangent with cosecant?

Professors seem to think you NEED TO KNOW these things, and you're telling me those professions NEED TO KNOW these things, so this is not an unrealistic number of formulas AT ALL.

OH NOT TO MENTION all the rules for finding them. Quotient Rule, Chain Rule, Product Rule, Power Rule. DEFINITELY NOT HARD TO CONFUSE THESE HAHAHAHA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_derivatives

Get memorizing. If you can't tell me what the derivative of 5x^9arccot(6x) +10x^2csc(3) is within five minutes, the world could end. No calculators, please.

Oh and don't confuse any of those with these.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_integrals

Wait, that's calculus?

****. Learning college level discrete math is actually kind-of fun, but calculus looks really boring and stupid.

Tokzic · 12-5-2006, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeek

Get memorizing. If you can't tell me what the derivative of 5x^9arccot(6x) +10x^2csc(3) is within five minutes, the world could end. No calculators, please.

hahahahahaha

Also, it makes me feel all fuzzy being able to not only comprehend, but actually have already known that entire wiki page when at this time last year I would just stared blankly at the screen.

Carbo: Calculus is basically math that involves rates of change. You've probably briefly looked at First Differences and Second Differences - that's extremely basic calculus. It's all about finding out how quickly your graphs are increasing/decreasing and how fast that's happening (i.e. velocity, acceleration). You NEED it for physics, and it has random bits of use in other pursuits (maximizing profits, other optimizations such as minimum surface area with maximum volume).

**Reach** · 12-5-2006, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeek

There's a big difference.

Put it this way. Whereas Reach was able to pass only by knowing similar problems beforehand, I failed because I knew all of the material but managed to get confused or messed up on trigonometric derivatives and integrals.

Long story short: I know Calculus and failed Calculus. Three times.

Just because I knew similar problems doesn't mean I didn't understand calculus >.>

It's pretty hard to fail a course. How on earth did you fail it 3 times? I call that pure lazy. Trigonometric derivatives take all of about 5 seconds to memorize, and you can derive all of them from scratch if you forget one.

And from personal experience, calculus in college is easier than in highschool.

86 in highschool calculus 95 in university.

Then again, essentially what our highschool teacher did was harder. He allowed calculators and in doing so made all of the tests far harder than anything we would be asked without a calculator.

**itmorr** · 12-5-2006, 02:53 PM

One of my friends failed the first calculus class three times and then got A's on (I think) every exam the third year. Pretty amazing slacker

. As Squeek said, College calculus is a lot of memorization before applying everything. However, as Reach said, it doesn't take too long to memorize the stuff.

lord_carbo · 12-5-2006, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokzic

hahahahahaha

Also, it makes me feel all fuzzy being able to not only comprehend, but actually have already known that entire wiki page when at this time last year I would just stared blankly at the screen.

I am staring blankly at the screen =(

If there's no implicit way to use a mathematical formula or if it doesn't have anything really interesting or concrete about it, I'm immediately turned off, which is why I take a bigger interest in discrete math subjects.

**Doug31** · 12-5-2006, 02:54 PM

To me, that's (that long post by Squeek) a distorted version of calculus. I prefer just knowing the formulas for exponential, logarithmic, sine, cosine, and then also the power rule, chain rule, quotient rule, and product rule, and logarithmic differentiation, and I feel I can differentiate just about anything that's differential from those. Integrals require knowing a lot more than that, though, even though a lot of it is just changing how the integral looks into something you know how to integrate.

**Shashakiro** · 12-5-2006, 02:54 PM

Different high schools and colleges do various subjects totally differently anyway, so it's kinda pointless to say that "all high school Calculus" or "all college Calculus" is done a certain way, because it's not.

A2_Sauce · 12-5-2006, 03:01 PM

Shash, please lock

JKPolk · 12-5-2006, 03:10 PM

The only calculus that's worthless is Calc 3, which in my Uni is most concerned with Infinite Series. Worthless pieces of crap, they is. If there's a way for you to avoid series, do it, but take the other calculus courses.

sherbtail · 12-5-2006, 03:31 PM

I love maths, its so lovely, ive just finished a practice paper for my exam thats coming up and was doing some iterative formula and differentiating natural logs and such, was great fun. Who cares if some maths you learn is pointless, its all fun. Yay for maths *huggles*

12-5-2006, 12:29 AM	#82
Squeek let it snow~ Join Date: Jan 2004 Age: 39 Posts: 14,444	*Re: Infinity Zero = Any Number ARGUE HERE** Shash, with all due respect, take Calculus in college and then tell me it's not all memorization. Thanks. There's a reason I've seen about twenty webcomics already with the standard "calculus professor" jokes about impossible equations that you have to do based on memorization and pencil-and-paper skills. And I thought we already solved this problem? It's pretty obvious to me at least, since mathematicians like making things up to annoy non-mathematicians. Like that whole 0.999....=1 argument. Please.

12-5-2006, 09:25 AM	#87
DDRcrazy5 FFR Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: in my imaginary world Age: 33 Posts: 177	*Re: Infinity Zero = Any Number ARGUE HERE** ∞∞∞∞∞∞∞ i bet you can't do that! __________________ This is my signature

12-5-2006, 02:54 PM	#96
Doug31 Falcon Paaaauuuunch!!!!!! Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Washington Age: 38 Posts: 6,811	*Re: Infinity Zero = Any Number ARGUE HERE** To me, that's (that long post by Squeek) a distorted version of calculus. I prefer just knowing the formulas for exponential, logarithmic, sine, cosine, and then also the power rule, chain rule, quotient rule, and product rule, and logarithmic differentiation, and I feel I can differentiate just about anything that's differential from those. Integrals require knowing a lot more than that, though, even though a lot of it is just changing how the integral looks into something you know how to integrate. __________________

12-5-2006, 03:01 PM	#98
A2_Sauce FFR Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wisconsin Age: 37 Posts: 631	*Re: Infinity Zero = Any Number ARGUE HERE** Shash, please lock __________________

12-5-2006, 03:10 PM	#99
JKPolk tool Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: satan Age: 39 Posts: 3,737	*Re: Infinity Zero = Any Number ARGUE HERE** The only calculus that's worthless is Calc 3, which in my Uni is most concerned with Infinite Series. Worthless pieces of crap, they is. If there's a way for you to avoid series, do it, but take the other calculus courses. __________________

12-5-2006, 03:31 PM	#100
sherbtail FFR Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 117	*Re: Infinity Zero = Any Number ARGUE HERE** I love maths, its so lovely, ive just finished a practice paper for my exam thats coming up and was doing some iterative formula and differentiating natural logs and such, was great fun. Who cares if some maths you learn is pointless, its all fun. Yay for maths huggles

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