Is the concept of spacetime logical? - Page 4

Anonymous · 04-2-2004, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlbinoLime

Makaveli.....you don't grasp concepts easily, do you? The guy said "Time is relative. The entire universe could slow down and we wouldn't notice it, because we would be slowing down too."

Lemme just repeat one part of what he said, just so it will sink in, "we wouldn't notice it"....

The days would last "longer", but if the universe slowed down (and everything in it (including time)), then the days would still be 24 hours. It would just be a longer 24 hours than it was when the universe was faster. Get it yet?

this is mak, im just too lazy to log in...so what youre saying is that my statement was exactly right, days and years would, in fact, be longer...why do you insist on turning everything into an arguement...my track recors speaks for itself, if you do want to argue with me, you will lose

AlbinoLime · 04-12-2004, 02:01 PM

You don't have a track record, if you do then I have not seen it. Anyways, you are only half right, If the universe and everything in it slowed down then time would be measured in the same way. 24 hours will still take 24 hours to complete, but compared to the 24 hours before the universe slowed down the slower universes days would seem longer. Days and years would not be longer, they would take the same amount of time to complete. Now that I think about it, you are wrong.....and I won......

makaveli121212 · 04-12-2004, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlbinoLime

The days would last "longer", but if the universe slowed down (and everything in it (including time)), then the days would still be 24 hours. It would just be a longer 24 hours than it was when the universe was faster. Get it yet?

you said it yourself nUb, now you contradict yourself...thats not the way to win...

AlbinoLime · 04-13-2004, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by makaveli121212

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlbinoLime

The days would last "longer", but if the universe slowed down (and everything in it (including time)), then the days would still be 24 hours. It would just be a longer 24 hours than it was when the universe was faster. Get it yet?

you said it yourself nUb, now you contradict yourself...thats not the way to win...

Just read the second post I explained it better.

Anonymous · 04-17-2004, 12:36 AM

This post is going to be really long because im gonna draw a picture. THIS IS NOT SPAM!!
Ok, time actually is the 4th dimension. It works exactly like a dimension. If i were to tell you to meet me on the corner 52nd street(length) and ave 22 (width) on the 15th floor(height), you would immediately ask me, "when?" I would have to define for you a 4th coordinate for the "position" function (2:00 in the afternoon). that is how time exists in the universe; we made up the system of measure, but not time itself.
That being said, time dialation occurs because it is a dimension.

Pretend you are in a car going 50 kph in a straight line; you are moving in one dimension and it will take you 1 hour to go 50 km IN THAT dimension.

Finish ----------------------
^
| 1 hour
|
Start------------------------

Now you are going 50 kph at a 45 degree angle to your previous course. You are travelling for a "longer period of time" (heheh) to go the same distance IN THAT dimension.

Finish ---------------------
^
\
\ longer than 1 hour
\
Start ------------------------

Now extrapolate that pattern out to four dimensions. No one here can deny that we are travelling through time; we cant stop(easily). But when we move, we are using some of our "speed through time" to go in the other 3 dimensions. That is why time "moves slower" as you go faster. It is also why time stops when you reach the speed of light. ALL of your "time speed" is going into motion. Like so:

Finish -----------------

----------------------->

Start -------------------

You wil NEVER get to the finish line....

I hope that helps explain it logically.

Anonymous · 04-17-2004, 12:38 AM

Hrmm... my picures didnt come out right... *sigh*

Thingy · 04-17-2004, 11:18 AM

Grrr.... that was me by the way

**alainbryden** · 04-17-2004, 06:46 PM

nice triple post. but no.
Time was, like you said, invented by humans, but it is not a dimention just because we use it to specify meeting places and such. One could just as easily say "meet me at coordinates (334,123,049) with the center of the earth as the origin 'when' the earth is at coordinates (2930,192834,4321) with the center of the sun as the origin." Same concept as time, infact, the coordinates could represent the second, day, week, year, etc, but the system of "time" was invented to allow for a much more regular representation of the earths position relative to the sun. "time" is just the continuity of atoms, molecules, objects etc. reacting with eachother. This continuity cannot be altered.

Thingy · 04-18-2004, 10:26 AM

If there was no such thing as time then nothing would ever happen.
Only our units if measure were invented by us. There are still things that have happened, that are happening, and that will happen regardless if we believe time exists or not.

Also, your system of measure also relys on the fact that the system of the earth is the origin. You have specified a specific point in space. But regardless if you can describe the whole planet with that system, what about something that never moves, or some random point out there that has nothing in it. In order to define any given point as the origin, you must define it in the 3 space dimensions otherwise we have no idea where your starting point is and you havent truly differentiated your starting point from the rest of the universe. So really, in that system of measure, you still have 3 space dimensions and one time dimension, the space dimensions are just implied from the origin.

Also, by calling time a continuity, you have just defined the term dimension. Thats what all the space dimensions are also, continuities in 3 separate directions.

Nightstar · 05-3-2004, 01:20 PM

Thingy said it very very well, okay. Time IS the 4th dimension. you move throught it in EXACTLY the same way you move through the regular 3.

To explain this, try this. Sit in your chair, being very still. you are not moving in the regular 3 dimensions, but you are still moving through time, it may not "look" like the other 3, but it works the same way.

as for time dilation, let me put it this way, time is maleable, just like the other dimensions. if i was to go the speed of light(somehow) the trip would be instant. i would be like-im here at earth, 3,2,1, launch. okay, that was a nice trip, here i am all the way across the galaxy. i would be the same age. but time still passed. it would be 135,000 years later on earth. that is standard physics, it is fact. we are not changing the way we measure time, we are changing the way we MOVE THROUGH it. Time is relative to the perspective of the observer.

as for the black whole thing, the gravity from the black whole changes the way you go through time, it warps time, and makes you accelerate into it, so if you were falling into a black whole, and "survived" long wnough to reach high speeds, you could technically watch the entire infinity of time pass by you, or at least until you were destroyed. that is IF you could stay alive, which is highly suspect.

suicidalmuskrat · 05-3-2004, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anonymous

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlbinoLime

Makaveli.....you don't grasp concepts easily, do you? The guy said "Time is relative. The entire universe could slow down and we wouldn't notice it, because we would be slowing down too."

Lemme just repeat one part of what he said, just so it will sink in, "we wouldn't notice it"....

The days would last "longer", but if the universe slowed down (and everything in it (including time)), then the days would still be 24 hours. It would just be a longer 24 hours than it was when the universe was faster. Get it yet?

this is mak, im just too lazy to log in...so what youre saying is that my statement was exactly right, days and years would, in fact, be longer...why do you insist on turning everything into an arguement...my track recors speaks for itself, if you do want to argue with me, you will lose

actually this whole day arguments simply depends on whether or not you are talking about a sidereal day or a solar day...basically whether you define a day as 24 hours, or define it as the time it takes for the earth to make one rotation...obviously the correct way to define this would one rotation, in which case if everything slowed down a day would be longer from an observer outside the universe, but the same to us.

As for all this stuff about time travel--backwards time travel is not possible at all...forward time travel is not exactly possible, just living longer. Also, I don't care what cnn.com says, sound can not escape from the singularity of a black hole. black holes do emit some matter, and that matter could produce sound. And as for the pain question, i'm not really sure. I would think not, because our nerves don't relay information to our brain faster than the speed of light, and if light can't escpape, then neither could our nerve "transmissions".

None of this had to do with the original post, but neither have the last 3 pages, so i don't feel too bad.

**alainbryden** · 05-4-2004, 06:15 AM

Don't really have time to re-argue my point, but...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightstar

To explain this, try this. Sit in your chair, being very still. you are not moving in the regular 3 dimensions, but you are still moving through time, it may not "look" like the other 3, but it works the same way.

You are still moving throught three dimentions, constantly, you may not notice it because you are not moving relative to earth, but you are always moving relative to something. The example I used was the sun, but that's only because that's what humans used to invent time in the first place. You could use my measure of time with any point as the origin, because time is, as you said, relative :P

Quote:

if you were falling into a black whole, and "survived" long wnough to reach high speeds, you could technically watch the entire infinity of time pass by you, or at least until you were destroyed. that is IF you could stay alive, which is highly suspect.

That's cool

Nightstar · 05-4-2004, 06:22 AM

alainbryden, of course you are still moving in the 3d, you can never stop moving. It was just an example. Shit, if you calculate in the speed of the galaxy, and the speed of earth, we are probably moving pretty quick. Thats a thought.

Quote:

Quote:
if you were falling into a black whole, and "survived" long wnough to reach high speeds, you could technically watch the entire infinity of time pass by you, or at least until you were destroyed. that is IF you could stay alive, which is highly suspect.

That's cool

yea, it is. Who want to go jump into a black hole?

Anonymous · 05-4-2004, 02:35 PM

i think the idea you are having a problem with is the reletive part yes times does speed up and slow down and they are even finding that even in some spots a foot by a foot that time may be travling faster then it is next to it.
the big problem is we live in the 3rd demention and to be able to mesure time in anyway that we are not in it we have to be in the 4 demenion se yes we can say its been a second and the person at the begging was kind of right cuz we are stuck in the 3rd demention and stuck in the time getting longer and shorter with us in it then our meshurment doesnt change here in the 3 demention "Reletivity" but if you were in the 4th you would beable to step out of time. then you could see the time speeding up and slowing down in spots but since everything is reletive here we cant few more things about the 4 demention if you can get into it and since you can step out of time you could come back into the third demention at any time you wanted. also you dont have to travel threw the third demention when you go into the 4th you can travel without time there by connecting any and all spots on the 3d. demmnion now the even more confusing part. with there being no time and no distance out side the third demention you can be in two places at once in the third dementions or you could be everywhere in the third demention.. it is also thought that there may be a "higher being" rember moth man profices there ya go

Nightstar · 05-4-2004, 05:29 PM

oh.my god. I.... um. er. ouch.

what the hell are you talking about? I....my eyes!

Anonymous · 05-4-2004, 06:10 PM

lol ya i had smoked before that hahahha. we can mesure time cuz we are stuck in it thats all if you can get outside of time then you can see it speeding up and slowing like in the time machine when the guy was inside the macine and everything outside it was changeing once you got outside of time you could watch it move around and swirl and build up in places like a river flowing over the universe but with everything inside time is reletive we will ever see it

themanwithsauce · 05-7-2004, 06:04 AM

i have this question, if time is a dimension then we can alter it to our will(to an extent). We have 3 physical dimensions as humans and we dont keep the same length height or width so we should be able to alter others including time right? I dont know if this is true or not and i dont know if my theory makes any sense at all.

**alainbryden** · 05-7-2004, 06:26 AM

wtf... if time is a dimention, then the theory is that we can alter it every time we change our velocity. If it isn't, then we can't. One is necessarily dependant on the other. You can't use one to prove the other, you get a vicious circle of stupidity.

Thingy · 05-7-2004, 03:41 PM

uhhh... but we do alter time for ourselves when we change velocity...

DracIV · 05-7-2004, 06:52 PM

If someone hopped on a space ship and went near-light-speed to the nearest star we know of, only about 1 year would go by for him. For us it would be 10,000.

Dimensions are not alterable. That man on the ship may have only experienced a millionth of the time we did, but time itself did not alter. Your interactions with dimensions can be altered, the dimensions can't. Just because I become taller doesn't mean I changed the dimension Height by stretching it. I can become fatter and not alter the dimension Width, for altering either of those two dimensions alters everything, and that type of interaction isn't possible. The same is true for Depth and Time. The universe must have all 4 of those to exist. Time could be summarized very simply: change. Change is everywhere, even in absolutely nothing.

04-17-2004, 06:46 PM	#68
alainbryden Seen your member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: noitacoL Posts: 2,873	nice triple post. but no. Time was, like you said, invented by humans, but it is not a dimention just because we use it to specify meeting places and such. One could just as easily say "meet me at coordinates (334,123,049) with the center of the earth as the origin 'when' the earth is at coordinates (2930,192834,4321) with the center of the sun as the origin." Same concept as time, infact, the coordinates could represent the second, day, week, year, etc, but the system of "time" was invented to allow for a much more regular representation of the earths position relative to the sun. "time" is just the continuity of atoms, molecules, objects etc. reacting with eachother. This continuity cannot be altered. __________________ ~NEIGH

05-7-2004, 06:26 AM	#78
alainbryden Seen your member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: noitacoL Posts: 2,873	wtf... if time is a dimention, then the theory is that we can alter it every time we change our velocity. If it isn't, then we can't. One is necessarily dependant on the other. You can't use one to prove the other, you get a vicious circle of stupidity. __________________ ~NEIGH

04-12-2004, 02:01 PM	#62
AlbinoLime FFR Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 101	You don't have a track record, if you do then I have not seen it. Anyways, you are only half right, If the universe and everything in it slowed down then time would be measured in the same way. 24 hours will still take 24 hours to complete, but compared to the 24 hours before the universe slowed down the slower universes days would seem longer. Days and years would not be longer, they would take the same amount of time to complete. Now that I think about it, you are wrong.....and I won......

04-17-2004, 12:36 AM	#65
Anonymous FFR Player Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,088	This post is going to be really long because im gonna draw a picture. THIS IS NOT SPAM!! Ok, time actually is the 4th dimension. It works exactly like a dimension. If i were to tell you to meet me on the corner 52nd street(length) and ave 22 (width) on the 15th floor(height), you would immediately ask me, "when?" I would have to define for you a 4th coordinate for the "position" function (2:00 in the afternoon). that is how time exists in the universe; we made up the system of measure, but not time itself. That being said, time dialation occurs because it is a dimension. Pretend you are in a car going 50 kph in a straight line; you are moving in one dimension and it will take you 1 hour to go 50 km IN THAT dimension. Finish ---------------------- ^ \| 1 hour \| Start------------------------ Now you are going 50 kph at a 45 degree angle to your previous course. You are travelling for a "longer period of time" (heheh) to go the same distance IN THAT dimension. Finish --------------------- ^ \ \ longer than 1 hour \ Start ------------------------ Now extrapolate that pattern out to four dimensions. No one here can deny that we are travelling through time; we cant stop(easily). But when we move, we are using some of our "speed through time" to go in the other 3 dimensions. That is why time "moves slower" as you go faster. It is also why time stops when you reach the speed of light. ALL of your "time speed" is going into motion. Like so: Finish ----------------- -----------------------> Start ------------------- You wil NEVER get to the finish line.... I hope that helps explain it logically.

04-17-2004, 12:38 AM	#66
Anonymous FFR Player Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,088	Hrmm... my picures didnt come out right... sigh

04-17-2004, 11:18 AM	#67
Thingy FFR Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 19	Grrr.... that was me by the way

04-18-2004, 10:26 AM	#69
Thingy FFR Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 19	If there was no such thing as time then nothing would ever happen. Only our units if measure were invented by us. There are still things that have happened, that are happening, and that will happen regardless if we believe time exists or not. Also, your system of measure also relys on the fact that the system of the earth is the origin. You have specified a specific point in space. But regardless if you can describe the whole planet with that system, what about something that never moves, or some random point out there that has nothing in it. In order to define any given point as the origin, you must define it in the 3 space dimensions otherwise we have no idea where your starting point is and you havent truly differentiated your starting point from the rest of the universe. So really, in that system of measure, you still have 3 space dimensions and one time dimension, the space dimensions are just implied from the origin. Also, by calling time a continuity, you have just defined the term dimension. Thats what all the space dimensions are also, continuities in 3 separate directions.

05-3-2004, 01:20 PM	#70
Nightstar FFR Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 28	Thingy said it very very well, okay. Time IS the 4th dimension. you move throught it in EXACTLY the same way you move through the regular 3. To explain this, try this. Sit in your chair, being very still. you are not moving in the regular 3 dimensions, but you are still moving through time, it may not "look" like the other 3, but it works the same way. as for time dilation, let me put it this way, time is maleable, just like the other dimensions. if i was to go the speed of light(somehow) the trip would be instant. i would be like-im here at earth, 3,2,1, launch. okay, that was a nice trip, here i am all the way across the galaxy. i would be the same age. but time still passed. it would be 135,000 years later on earth. that is standard physics, it is fact. we are not changing the way we measure time, we are changing the way we MOVE THROUGH it. Time is relative to the perspective of the observer. as for the black whole thing, the gravity from the black whole changes the way you go through time, it warps time, and makes you accelerate into it, so if you were falling into a black whole, and "survived" long wnough to reach high speeds, you could technically watch the entire infinity of time pass by you, or at least until you were destroyed. that is IF you could stay alive, which is highly suspect.

05-4-2004, 02:35 PM	#74
Anonymous FFR Player Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,088	i think the idea you are having a problem with is the reletive part yes times does speed up and slow down and they are even finding that even in some spots a foot by a foot that time may be travling faster then it is next to it. the big problem is we live in the 3rd demention and to be able to mesure time in anyway that we are not in it we have to be in the 4 demenion se yes we can say its been a second and the person at the begging was kind of right cuz we are stuck in the 3rd demention and stuck in the time getting longer and shorter with us in it then our meshurment doesnt change here in the 3 demention "Reletivity" but if you were in the 4th you would beable to step out of time. then you could see the time speeding up and slowing down in spots but since everything is reletive here we cant few more things about the 4 demention if you can get into it and since you can step out of time you could come back into the third demention at any time you wanted. also you dont have to travel threw the third demention when you go into the 4th you can travel without time there by connecting any and all spots on the 3d. demmnion now the even more confusing part. with there being no time and no distance out side the third demention you can be in two places at once in the third dementions or you could be everywhere in the third demention.. it is also thought that there may be a "higher being" rember moth man profices there ya go

05-4-2004, 05:29 PM	#75
Nightstar FFR Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 28	oh.my god. I.... um. er. ouch. what the hell are you talking about? I....my eyes!

05-4-2004, 06:10 PM	#76
Anonymous FFR Player Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,088	lol ya i had smoked before that hahahha. we can mesure time cuz we are stuck in it thats all if you can get outside of time then you can see it speeding up and slowing like in the time machine when the guy was inside the macine and everything outside it was changeing once you got outside of time you could watch it move around and swirl and build up in places like a river flowing over the universe but with everything inside time is reletive we will ever see it

05-7-2004, 06:04 AM	#77
themanwithsauce FFR Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: I'm not lost, just taking the long way Posts: 107	i have this question, if time is a dimension then we can alter it to our will(to an extent). We have 3 physical dimensions as humans and we dont keep the same length height or width so we should be able to alter others including time right? I dont know if this is true or not and i dont know if my theory makes any sense at all.

05-7-2004, 03:41 PM	#79
Thingy FFR Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 19	uhhh... but we do alter time for ourselves when we change velocity...

05-7-2004, 06:52 PM	#80
DracIV FFR Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 298	If someone hopped on a space ship and went near-light-speed to the nearest star we know of, only about 1 year would go by for him. For us it would be 10,000. Dimensions are not alterable. That man on the ship may have only experienced a millionth of the time we did, but time itself did not alter. Your interactions with dimensions can be altered, the dimensions can't. Just because I become taller doesn't mean I changed the dimension Height by stretching it. I can become fatter and not alter the dimension Width, for altering either of those two dimensions alters everything, and that type of interaction isn't possible. The same is true for Depth and Time. The universe must have all 4 of those to exist. Time could be summarized very simply: change. Change is everywhere, even in absolutely nothing.

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