The Future of Stepmania

[qqwref]

Are equipped bench press records the vibrawall files, in your analogy?

[Arch0wl]

Not really, because the vibrawall files are a single movement. The fingers aren't actually doing anything. So I can put my hand across six keys and vibrate it, and that's not that interesting.

The most dense part of Protosphere by contrast is very interesting because if you look at it, it's clearly able to be done. The patterns flow at slow speeds, so if you turn it down to 0.3x most regular 6key players will be able to do it. But if you crank that up to 1.0x, for a lot of people it turns into a blur and there's something blocking the brain from doing it.

I think it has to do with the brain not having developed neural connections for those movements yet. So if you're not physically able to do the patterns because you can't do a particular kind of chordstream, you'll have difficulty reading it unless the pattern is something obnoxious. Recently I've been doing isolations, where I chop off the left or right hand part of the file, and I've noticed that for most songs where I have the "it's a blur" feeling, it's because my left hand is failing me in some way.

If you can think about what it would be like to take the density of the densest part of Protosphere and have an equivalent density on 10 keys, at somewhere between 200-240 bpm -- you'd have basically maxed out how nimble your hands could be, give or take a few dozen BPM. There's something inherently interesting about that to me.

[Arch0wl]

Also, you can really categorize SM skills into three measurements:

Finger-to-finger / F2F, which is what solo/kb7 is. F2F is the nimbleness of your fingers or how fluidly you can switch between fingers. Something like index (or drummania) has no F2F.

key-to-key / k2k, which is what index is. K2K is the coordination of you moving your hands around the defined key area and it's also why if you were to play Synthesia, which is basically just Piano Hero, even if you were able to AAA a very hard 7-key song you'd still suck on very easy Synthesia songs because your brain has to get used to coordinating that kind of movement.

wrist speed, so basically the ability to vibrate and do really fast trills. This exists across all playmodes but Stepmania is the game that maximizes it the most so I don't think I need to explain what it is.

I have a separate game idea in mind for something that would maximize K2K. It involves a clam-shaped stand that has 8 pop'n buttons positioned kind of like DDR doubles but spread out more like a W. Then on two platforms raised higher than the clam platform there are two gigantic buttons used for "big" sounds, like drops and stuff like that.

[qqwref]

Actually my point was that the bench shirt, just like vibrawalls, lets you artificially go past the limit of how much you can actually handle.

And re: being able to hit files like Protosphere, I think a lot of it really is physical - you're just not going to be able to hit heavy patterns at that speed on 6key without a lot of time spent working on moving your fingers in the right ways. Maybe it's your reading ability making it a blur, but I've noticed a lot of the time when I'm playing 4key I can read a pattern and know what would be involved to hit it, but can't physically pull it off (the fingers can't keep up with what the brain wants them to do). And similarly, although I could easily imagine someone physically fast enough on all fingers to hit super-dense 10key chordstreams at 200 bpm, the actual physical coordination between the fingers may not be reasonable.


EDIT: I'm sure there is a better name than "key to key". Like "repositioning speed" or something. Also, I think I'd actually put wristjacking and vibrajacking separately.

[Izzy]

I've always wanted some kind of controller pad like popnmusic for stepmania that has 4 big buttons that you hit with your whole hands or at least a few fingers. People who have never played index would probably be at a total loss at how to play it.

[Arch0wl]

I like "K2K" just because it can be abbreviated well and is a quantity ("degree of K2K"). But you can use different names if you want; we're describing the same thing. (Good point about wristjacking / vibrajacking.)

Izzy -- I'm with you. I think high-level index is some of the most satisfying stuff to watch and you can transfer the skillset to large pop'n buttons without much effort.

[Snapps]

there was a make-shift stepmania arcade cabinet that had that. 4 dome buttons.

[Arch0wl]

It'd be way more interesting with 8. And I pick 8 just because that's enough you need to do all of the K2K movements. Any additional buttons don't really do anything.

There's a movement in drums called the "helicopter" that's only possible if you have four buttons aligned in a horizontal row. If you can imagine these horizontal keys as Q, R, U, P, and (r) as your right hand and (l) as your left hand, you'd hit U(r) R(l) Q(r) R(l) U(r) P(l) and repeat. This is extremely awkward to do on almost every music game except drummania just because most do not create enough distance from the keys/buttons to allow you to cross one wrist over the other. But when you're able to do it, it looks and feels extremely satisfying.

But going from 4-->8 as an index player is not hard at all. You're using almost all of the same movements just on a larger scale. It would take a few days for your brain to adjust but the muscle memory would transfer pretty quickly. So, say, if Izzy is currently the best index player, he'd still be the best at this game provided everything else is equal.

[kommisar]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

does osumania have an option to upward scroll like Stepmania with orbular-like receptors that are pegged to rhythm? that's a dealbreaker for me

they are working on it as we speak

[Izzy]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

So, say, if Izzy is currently the best index player,

Your making me blush.

I know it was just an example, but the truth is I haven't played index in about 5 years. Seeing as how nobody plays it at all it could potentially be true though.

As for trying to play 8 keys with 2 fingers by using my 4 key index ability I really can't picture how that would work for me mentally. I'd have to give it a try.

Btw, I attempted playing index about a month ago after a 5 year hiatus. My accuracy is rather disgusting compared to my prime, but I think it will be impossible to forget how to play.

[Arch0wl]

Originally Posted by kommisar

they are working on it as we speak

if they successfully do it -- that is, playing on Osu doesn't feel any different than playing on SM5 -- well, I'd really have no reason to not play it.

[Arch0wl]

Izzy -- accuracy is the thing that goes the most after long-term hiatuses.

But I don't care about accuracy for the most part. Higher levels of accuracy aren't interesting to watch, IMO. If I were making a music game I'd cap it at DDR-level accuracy, pre-SuperNova. By "DDR-level" accuracy I mean judge 5 but with marvelous turned off. Alternatively you could compare it to, say, Pop'n Music, which is largely the same thing until you start talking about "cools".

The important thing is that the muscle memory is still there. And really, most of the movements that you'd do with 8 keys already exist with 4 keys. Like, (if you look at numpad) 4282628242 could be expanded to a bunch of other keys if you had more buttons to work with, but the basic idea of the movement is the same.

[Arkuski]

Originally Posted by qqwref

Keeping the game alive is about bringing in new people, whether it's by keeping the game fresh or by simply being more accepting. Maybe we just need to actually advertise (remember that FFR demo Tass made for Kongregate?).

This. There are huge pools of people on the Internet waiting to have ideas pressed upon them. Think about reddit, YouTube, Facebook, twitter, etc. With some effective advertising both FFR and stepmania could get TONS of excited noobs to play.

[cetaka]

i only read the first paragraph of I. of the OP but i just wanted to say that sequence could be super deep if it was charted by ppl who knew what they were doing and used primo anime songs instead of drawing its music primarily from Ronald Jenkees - Ronald Jenkees OST. i really enjoyed playing that game its cool.

[Staiain]

Originally Posted by kommisar

they are working on it as we speak

This already works, you just need to do a minor edit in a config file for the time being

[kommisar]

the main issue with osumania is that it's too much of a bms/o2jam clone to completely replace stepmania. noteskin customizing is basically non-existent and a chore to do.

If they can optimize the gameplay and get rid of the HORRENDOUS delay, i'll probably never play sm again.

[intensez]

stepmania

[ddr_f4n]

Problem with osumania is that it won't really be well known for pad files for me. Does it even support pad controllers?

[kommisar]

good question. you can map keys but idk if it supports controllers.

also it's a keyboard based game inspired by another keyboard game, so it's not likely they'll care much about it.

[Leo137]

Also all charts for osumania suck, conversions from normal osu mode dont work quite right, and since every beatmap has to be approved for normal osu mode, stepmania conversions wont pass.

If stepmania had a online interface like osu it would surely make it, the versatility on how to play and make files isnt a problem (actually should be encouraged), players will now what they want to play, like for example, what happened originally with Dota (warcraft III custom map)