Does your gender or sex define you?

[Cavernio]

"You're making another uncritical assumption here, and that is that heterosexuality is a product of biology where homosexuality is not."

No, I'm not saying that at all. You can't take what I say for myself to mean that I think that everyone feels that way, or turn that into an assumption of what homosexuality is. I doubt a biological change late in life would have the same effect that biology in the womb has. For instance, we alter the biology of men or women to change their sex, but do we even have any success of changing someone from straight to gay, or a much more sought after practice, gay to straight? Even if at some point someone did manage to actually change someone from gay to straight, it would likely be a result of brain-washing and not biological changes.
On another note though, I've a womean who specifically said "I'm done with men, all the ones I've known have hurt me", and if they never considered themselves lesbian before, at least act like they are now, and want to be considered that way. I in fact strongly believe homosexuality is a result of biology. I assume that TG is as well, although I have not really read as much about it as I have homosexuality. I will not ignore the social part of our genders and sexuality though, nor ignore that what we do may not be congruent with what we actually feel. All that said, which sex I would like after a sex change is really a side-note to what I feel like I would be.

"It would be like if I made a poll asking if the reader had hypothetically been born without fingers on one hand, and with fingers on another, would this bother them? Everyone who voted yes on that would be dismissing your own feelings as invalid, and they would be doing it without having even the slightest experience with the subject."

Firstly, I do find areas in my life where I would like fingers, and hence even if it feels normal, it doesn't mean I don't want them. Secondly, regardless of that first sentence in the paragraph and all the implications it may or may not have that I haven't thought about yet, and on a much more general note, what someone else feels doesn't invalidate what I feel, nor does it work the other way around. IMO that's a life lesson everyone should learn. It acknowledges the fact that we are individuals who may not fully understand one another. It also stops people from getting hurt, while still allowing people to actually have opinions about things. If we don't do that, then we're saying that only guru's should have opinions about things. Better to have an opinion than basically be brain-dead about something, or to just agree with someone because they're the expert. We all are assigned a sex and have a gender, we all have some experience in this.
I think Rubin0's experience of not wanting to dress and act feminine, while still not saying 'I want a penis and balls to go with that' shows that not everyone who feels like they're not their gender feels like they're in the wrong body...an experience it seems you could never have.

[Cavernio]

"This doesn't mesh with what you've been telling us."
How so? I know that question sounds goading, but I really need to know why that doesn't necessarily mesh. This is really whole other can of worms to open for me though, and really an aside. Despite my best efforts, I find myself thinking of most people online who aren't obviously female, as male. Its like some ingrained thing, and it drives me bonkers, and I know that other people experience it too, and I really want to overcome that. I feel that if I say I'm female, because I don't ooze femininity, this will help that situation just a little maybe.
That said, and I know this doesn't make me any less of a pig or whatever it is that you likely think of me for being so dumb with not understand TG people, (even though you're being very patient) but I remember when Kilroy was never openly either gender. I probably thought of you as male then, (even though I think I specifically tried to treat you gender neutral) but I of course thought of you as female when you said you were, and I still think of you as female now. It is definitely odd to think of you in a man's body.

I also really want to say before my previous post gets nerves wound up, in that I really never intended to get into generalizations about gender and sex, because that will undoubtably end up in failure to understand anything. Again, it still astounds me that the votes are so evenly split.

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by fido123

I actually know 3 TG people (and somebody who wants to go through with it although only over the internet), and have discussed this kind of stuff in depth as I find it pretty interesting. One of them is a major figure in the Toronto LGBT community. My girlfriend also doesn't feel congruent with her gender although doesn't want to be TG at all. I base my opinion off what these people have told me, keeping in mind I've only talked to a small sample of the TG population. Assuming nobody knows that they're talking about is pretty retarded.

That's indirect experience. You're still fundamentally disconnected from the subject by at least one degree, as opposed to actual TG people.

Originally Posted by Cavernio

It also stops people from getting hurt, while still allowing people to actually have opinions about things. If we don't do that, then we're saying that only guru's should have opinions about things. Better to have an opinion than basically be brain-dead about something, or to just agree with someone because they're the expert.

I don't think it does stop people from getting hurt. People base their conduct on the opinions they have about other people, and when they have different opinions about some people than others that translates to special treatment, usually inferior. In 99% of cases you would be right, discourse would be productive and if anyone got their feelings hurt, it would mean an excessive level of attachment to the subject. But here, the subject of discussion is people themselves. You can't honestly expect to have a debate about the significance of intractable human conditions without effecting some of the people who possess them emotionally, especially when you have no direct experience with said conditions yourself.

Transgender people experience real discrimination that effects access to jobs, housing, and healthcare and dimishes their quality of life in many other capacities. That discrimination has its roots in ideas and in opinions. So when you say that an opinion can't hurt another person if they don't let it, well, that's not only false but harmful, because it puts the blame on the victimized demographic for occupying their current position in the world.

I honestly don't think you should be allowed to have an opinion about things you have no experience with when it comes to people. There's this fundamentally flawed idea that all opinions are equal, and that has the effect of privileging the majority and enabling discrimination, because they're entitled to their opinion about the minority, and also to act on that opinion. Opinions become action, and a disenfranchised minority can't turn their own opinions into action very effectively because they're denied access to the means to do so, through the actualization of the opinions which the majority have about them. This perpetuates a cycle of inequality, and it has it's roots in a fundamental truth.

Minority -> Minority experiences: grounded opinion about minority
Majority -> ~Minority experiences: ungrounded opinion about minority

This isn't antithetical to discourse. Just the opposite. You can't have a discourse when you can't understand the antecedent you're referring to. So no, I don't think you should have an opinion about this, because an opinion about an unknown subject is senseless by requirement.

Originally Posted by Cavernio

We all are assigned a sex and have a gender, we all have some experience in this.

We don't all have experience with having a sex which is incongruent to our gender, which I will remind you is the subject of discussion; not sex and gender in any broader sense.

Originally Posted by Cavernio

I think Rubin0's experience of not wanting to dress and act feminine, while still not saying 'I want a penis and balls to go with that' shows that not everyone who feels like they're not their gender feels like they're in the wrong body...an experience it seems you could never have.

True, and I'm willing to respect that. However, the question was whether you would have identity issues, romantic issues, or body issues if ones sex were incongruent to ones original gender (and I phrase it this way to try and work around the awkward ciscentric phrasing of the original question, and I also make note that "original" here doesn't necessarily mean permeable, as that is left open for discussion by the OP as one of the underlying questions).

Now, you have yet to clarify what you mean by "identity", but (and forgive me for trying to speak for you Rubin) it would seem that under at least some interpretation of "identity", Rubin has had issues with defining an identity in relation to her sex and societal expectations for her sex.

It seems that genderqueer people of any variety, whether TG or not, are liable to answer yes to at least one of the three counts you offerred and therefore have issues based on an incongruence between sex and gender, even if it isn't as severe in all cases as it is with TG people.

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by Cavernio

"This doesn't mesh with what you've been telling us."
How so? I know that question sounds goading, but I really need to know why that doesn't necessarily mesh. This is really whole other can of worms to open for me though, and really an aside. Despite my best efforts, I find myself thinking of most people online who aren't obviously female, as male. Its like some ingrained thing, and it drives me bonkers, and I know that other people experience it too, and I really want to overcome that. I feel that if I say I'm female, because I don't ooze femininity, this will help that situation just a little maybe.

Well, I suppose I just don't see why you would specifically want to do anything about that situation at all if you didn't assign some significance to gender, or have some specific investment in gender.

Originally Posted by Cavernio

That said, and I know this doesn't make me any less of a pig or whatever it is that you likely think of me for being so dumb with not understand TG people, (even though you're being very patient) but I remember when Kilroy was never openly either gender. I probably thought of you as male then, (even though I think I specifically tried to treat you gender neutral) but I of course thought of you as female when you said you were, and I still think of you as female now. It is definitely odd to think of you in a man's body.

...

<3

Originally Posted by Cavernio

I also really want to say before my previous post gets nerves wound up, in that I really never intended to get into generalizations about gender and sex, because that will undoubtably end up in failure to understand anything. Again, it still astounds me that the votes are so evenly split.

It sort of goes with the territory though.

[fido123]

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

That's indirect experience. You're still fundamentally disconnected from the subject by at least one degree, as opposed to actual TG people.

If you think this automatically makes your opinion superior you're wrong. I'm going to obviously take into consideration that this is something you've probably thought about longer, and harder than I, and you're also experiencing it but you're just throwing your opinions around as absolute truth without giving any reasoning or proof a lot of the time. Also different people might experience what you're going through differently, and for different reasons, although I agree what you're saying is probably what most are going through cause everybody's different. When you talk the way you have been though it gives off the feeling that you're not approaching this with any sort of open mind, and you expect everybody to be forced to agree with you because "I'm going through it and you're not".

I'm not really looking into getting into any sort of argument, you'd probably prove your point a lot better with a better attitude.

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by fido123

you're just throwing your opinions around as absolute truth without giving any reasoning or proof a lot of the time.

Proof. I = myself

buh?

Originally Posted by fido123

When you talk the way you have been though it gives off the feeling that you're not approaching this with any sort of open mind, and you expect everybody to be forced to agree with you because "I'm going through it and you're not".

Why the **** do I have to approach your opinion about my shit with an open mind? I didn't say you had to agree with me. I said you shouldn't feel entitled to an opinion about the significance of my life experiences. That leaves you a second option, called "don't have an opinion". Your only valid options are to agree with me or to not have an opinion on the subject. Yes, that's marginally disempowering for you. You the privileged. Which is to say, tough shit, GET OVER IT.

Originally Posted by fido123

I'm not really looking into getting into any sort of argument, you'd probably prove your point a lot better with a better attitude.

You're the one that needs to get over yourself. Sorry I called you out on your privilege and made you defensive, but no, you are not entitled to have your opinion considered when your opinion is about me.

[fido123]

I'm not talking about how you felt or what your life experiences were. I'm talking about TG people in general. I'm not telling you what you feel or how you should feel, I'm simply saying everybody is different and will have different experiences.

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by fido123

I'm not talking about how you felt rather than the TG people in general.

I'm part of TG people in general. Obviously I'm not their spokesperson and what I say shouldn't automatically be taken as true or representative of all TG people, but when you speak about TG people, you're speaking about me even if only fractionally. I don't like being spoken about by people who don't listen and also don't have similar experiences to me, because that kind of speech is disrespectful and it also implies making things the **** up.

[fido123]

Trans-gendered people are horrible people. A gang of them broke into my house and stole all my belongings and killed my family. I am not the only victim as it's happened to most of my neighbors. TG people are terrible people and if you disagree you're retarded because you haven't gone through the horrors of dealing with them like I have. Every single one of my neighbors has the same opinion although I've only talked to a few of them about it. Stop being such a spoiled prick. I don't care you've talked to other neighbors about this and they think differently, it happened to me so I'm right so you can **** right off.

Seriously though what you're doing is like telling people men can't have an opinion on feminism and straight people can't have an opinion on gays.

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by fido123

Trans-gendered people are horrible people. A gang of them broke into my house and stole all my belongings and killed my family. I am not the only victim as it's happened to most of my neighbors. TG people are terrible people and if you disagree you're retarded because you haven't gone through the horrors of dealing with them like I have.

It's a different thing to experience a natural phenomenon than to experience a human phenomenon. To say otherwise is to strip a human of their humanity. Your ill-conceived example is indicative of the attitude I've been reproaching you for.

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by fido123

Seriously though what you're doing is like telling people men can't have an opinion on feminism and straight people can't have an opinion on gays.

They can. The boundaries of what this opinion is permitted to be are defined by the self-reported experiences of women and of gays. You are allowed to have an opinion about a minority group, but it has to take the reported experiences of the minority group at face value as one of its foundations. It's utterly senseless to disagree with someone about what their own life experiences are, so any opinion which does so is illegitimate.

[fido123]

Regardless of my ill-conceived example tell me why any opinion I have on trans-gendered people that isn't yours is automatically incorrect? Like I've said before I've talked to a few people experiencing this human phenomenon out of curiosity so what if I hold one of their opinions true and it differs from yours? Is it still wrong? What if I listen to how each TG person I know feels and compile their opinions, along with applicable proved facts? Your points may be a bit more valuable as I would assume you've thought about this subject a lot more, and probably more seriously, but then again I could also argue that because you're experiencing it yourself you feel entitled to bring a very strong bias to the table. In the end you are one trans-gendered individual and only you can tell us the way you feel and nobody can really say anything against that, but like you said you can't be their spokesperson, which should also mean you don't tell everybody their wrong simply cause their not trans-gendered. It seems you think I'm trying to disprove your life experiences but I'm not, I'm just saying I can have an opinion too. If this applies to gays to then you're a ****ing retard and a biggot cause I fall into that category lol.

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by fido123

Regardless of my ill-conceived example tell me why any opinion I have on trans-gendered people that isn't yours is automatically incorrect?

Mine, another TG persons, or a reasonable personal interpretation thereof, perhaps combined with other considerations but never comprised of these considerations independently. And again, for the 10 millionth time, because you're discussing the transgender phenomenon and the only way to understand certain core aspects of it (THOSE UNDER DISCUSSION ITT) is either directly, or through the intermediary of people who experience it directly.

Originally Posted by fido123

Like I've said before I've talked to a few people experiencing this human phenomenon out of curiosity so what if I hold one of their opinions true and it differs from yours? Is it still wrong?

No. This just shows that the transgender phenomenon isn't one unitary phenomenon, but a collection of discrete phenomenon sharing certain components in common either conceptually or actually. It may be the case that the "transgender" concept is a broad label grouping unrelated phenomenon. There are a number of possibilities.

Also, that's not what I meant by human phenomenon.

Originally Posted by fido123

What if I listen to how each TG person I know feels and compile their opinions, along with applicable proved facts?

That would be acceptable.

Originally Posted by fido123

Your points may be a bit more valuable as I would assume you've thought about this subject a lot more, and probably more seriously, but then again I could also argue that because you're experiencing it yourself you feel entitled to bring a very strong bias to the table.

The "bias" is outweighed by the fact I have direct experience. Would you please stop and think about what direct experience actually means. You're conducting a thought experiment, an exercize in pure speculation, about a phenomenon I actually experience.

Originally Posted by fido123

In the end you are one trans-gendered individual and only you can tell us the way you feel and nobody can really say anything against that, but like you said you can't be their spokesperson, which should also mean you don't tell everybody their wrong simply cause their not trans-gendered. It seems you think I'm trying to disprove your life experiences but I'm not, I'm just saying I can have an opinion too.

I don't need to be their spokesperson to point out that a lack of experience with something plus a willful neglect of any reported experience with something invalidate an opinion. You can have an opinion, but if it's outside a certain range of opinions (ie, not based on anything resembling the subject itself) then it isn't valid. Again, get over it.

Originally Posted by fido123

If this applies to gays to then you're a ****ing retard and a biggot cause I fall into that category lol.

Explain. I think you may have misinterpreted something somewhere.

[Rubin0]

You disregarded my experiences (which are legitimate) completely and yet went out of your way to contradict Fido. How convenient for you.

Just because you are experiencing this does not make you the all knowing all seeing expert on the issue. I myself am not an expert about everything that has to do with being a lesbian because everybody's experiences are different.

Edit: I just saw in your past posts that you mentioned what i said while talking to another person. I'm going back to read it now.

[Rubin0]

"Now, you have yet to clarify what you mean by "identity", but (and forgive me for trying to speak for you Rubin) it would seem that under at least some interpretation of "identity", Rubin has had issues with defining an identity in relation to her sex and societal expectations for her sex."

But isn't much of what it means to be transgendered has to do with social expectations? Transgendered people that I have encountered are often very set on "passing". This means for transgendered women at least, that they grow their hair out, wear feminine clothing, and "act" like women. These things are all socially set. The color pink is not naturally feminine. Blue is not naturally masculine. That is what we are taught. We learn these behaviors and learn how to look throughout life, I wouldn't necessarily call them natural characteristics of women.

As far as on a physical level, if we didn't put people into these two strict categories and we never saw each other naked, we might never put such an emphasis on having either a penis or a vagina. Hell, I would bet we wouldn't look as differently as we do now because we shape our bodies (if even subconsciously) in order to meet social expectations. My vagina doesn't make me any more a woman (according to what society says is a woman) as my short hair makes me a man. But again, those are just my views on gender and everyone is effected by society differently.

[MetalAtlas]

Well for one, I think this topic got a little off subject. It seems to now be about whether you are experienced enough to offer your own opinion on the subject of TG people. Which I don;t recall the poll actually being about. If you woke up a different sex, would you wake up with identity issues. Whether a person is wrong or right really isn't the question. It's a person's take on themselves and whether or not they think that they could relate easier or if they would have trouble. Sure, the question is a bit obtuse as it may depend on what happens during this change and what else does or doesn't change, but what it boils down to is, yes or no. That's the whole point of this thread, along with some opinions on why you would think in either direction. This wasn't intended to be some scientifically proven discussion (correct me if I'm wrong). It was meant to showcase that some people think that they might have an easier time with a drastic change than other people. It's all about opinion. And less about fact.

[Mulie]

Disregarding the physiological and social implications of such a change, as well as any other technical problems that might arise as a consequence as I become accustomed to my new body, and any philosophical reflections I might have? No. I would not have "identity issues".

Life is mundane. My "gender", so loosely defined, is arbitrary.

[fido123]

Killroy, it's not rational to go by "I've gone through it therefor I'm right and you're wrong". Enjoy your shitty logic and ignorance. You get all pissed off because people "assume" things too much but you sure assume a lot about others. I'm wondering if you're retarded or just trolling.

[buizel8888]

oh and best post of the thread btw
I don't really think much of my gender, but the fact is I feel anatomically incorrect. I don't know if you're familiar with computers, but being TG for me is sort of like having a piece of hardware physically installed on a platform when you don't have drivers for it. I've never been in a romantic relationship, or even tried for one, because I wouldn't know what to do with myself in one. But people talk a lot about love, there are expectations about it, it gets played up a lot and people who don't experience it are viewed as abnormal or inferior. So again, there are compounding psychological and social effects from not being able to have romantic encounters. I tried to teach myself to be ok with the thought of being chaste for life, and it took away a lot of the stress, but every now and then I would catch glimpses of what other people were getting out of love, or I would find myself attracted to someone, or even just generically aroused.

And again this plays into expectations. So there's a combination effect that makes the inability to have relationships into something extremely alienating. Everyone you know is either in a relationship, has been in one or has it as their goal to be in one, and you've given up on it because you don't have it in you to get into a relationship in your current body. And so you're already the odd one out, but then throw in the fact that everyone is expecting you to be dating, to throw your two cents in on "would you hit it" conversations and to talk about people you're attracted to, and it can be offputting to other people as well. And the first assumption is always that you're just gay, because that would be an easy answer, and it would still make you relateable because you would still have those same kinds of feelings, priorities, goals as other people, just directed towards a different gender. So again you get misread, and feel lonely, and that's just if people continue to associate with you under the false impressions they've generated. Nevermind when they get so weirded out they just decide not to deal with you.

But basically, there are very real expectations for different sexes, and there are also equivalent expectations for both sexes which are hard to fulfill when you don't identify with that sex. Having body parts you don't know what to do with, and in lieu of body parts which you would know what to do with is upsetting beyond description. If anyone has ever broken a bone, and a bone they use in the course of their day to day life, and waited for it to heal, they're probably familiar with a feeling of being trapped or being disempowered. Except in the case of TG people it's not just that you aren't able to use something you have well developed insticts to use, it's that it's been replaced with another thing which is completely useless.

I could write a lot more but I don't want to bombard you with a wall of text, which this already somewhat is. As an aside, as a result of feminism social expectations for women may have grown laxer, allowing women more freedom of expression in terms of gender presentation, but being an effiminate man is still very much enforced against in ways that being a masculine women is not. So your idea that there are no specific roles for the genders is extremely gynocentric, and also eurocentric in the sense that women's liberation doesn't really extend to the third world.

[Arch0wl]

I would certainly have some identity issues. I have a "look", I suppose, and that's part of my identity.

But it's a small part. My identity stems from my views first and everything else later. If asked to define myself, "rationalist" would be the first adjective, followed by a few other belief-related words, followed by my occupation/age. I don't think "man" would show up -- not because I'm against defining myself that way, but because I don't tend to think much about maleness or femaleness.