World of Warcraft

[Izzy]

I don't think anyone uses dkp anymore, and clearly there is no need. Just saying how guilds used to do it. dkp was used because wasting a week of loot on someone just for them to leave the guild really set them behind. Not as much loot droped as does now.

Rolling on loot isn't cool though. I could have had alot of tier 7+ by now -_-;

[devonin]

Rolling seems to me to be the only fair way to distribute loot. The trick is to just raid with people you know aren't stupid douches and there's no problems at all with it.

[Izzy]

With rolling you can do naxx 100 times and have a chance to win nothing. Although its unlikely id still rather have an organized guild with dkp or seniority system.

[Sullyman2007]

Even when I pug I don't normally have problems with looting. Every now and then a huntard will greed on a cloth BoP, but it's not a like I'm doing 25-man raids yet so I guess things change.

[tsugomaru]

I stopped seeing DKP when BC came out. It didn't seem like a stupid rule back when you had 40 people, 10 or more rolling over the same item as you are. The one who has been on 30 raids is more deserving of it than a person who has ran it once.

Over the last few weeks, there has been drama brewing up in my guild although I was unaware of it. Our guild is composed of a couple groups of friend and we have enough to easily get a 10 man together. Not only that, all of us are decently well geared. The problem is however, we never have enough to do a guild 25 man run and we have to PUG it all the time. In the end, a lot of the high end gear never stayed within the guild or went to the people who worked hard to get the group going or to lead the raid. These people were pissed off and decided to gquit. My friends and I remained in the guild until it dwindled down to two groups of friend and in the end, we decided to leave.

The new guild I joined is the one I've been running 25 mans with. They, like my old guild, are composed of good group of friends and they don't send out guild invites to just anyone. People who get guild invites are trusted to stay within the guild, so we have only about 70 members with well over 2/3s of them being alts. However, when we run 25 mans, the loot master always keeps the high-end gear within the guild even if the guild member lost the roll to a PUG. It may seem unfair, but at the same time, I think it's a good solution to my guild's old problem. My old guild broke up because gear kept on leaving the guild on 25 man runs we organized. This guild keeps the high-end gear with people who will attend raids week after week instead of those who appear once for a raid, and then never show up ever again in weeks to come.

Not all gear should be distributed by rolling. It may seem like the more fair way, but at the same time, it's not. PUGs who show up to a raid that they didn't even bother organizing shouldn't be getting Saph or KT gear so that they have a shot of joining another guild who is farther in progression. Gear should go to the most loyal.

~Tsugomaru

[fido123]

My guild just does the basic roll algorithm then on top of that takes into consideration how much of an upgrade the gear is to that person. They also check if that person has been rolling a not and hasn't been getting anything. If the other person resists fine but we've never run into that. If you just have a good group of mature people, who understand any upgrade for any member of the guild will help them, loot distribution is easy.

[devonin]

PUGs who show up to a raid that they didn't even bother organizing shouldn't be getting Saph or KT gear

Why? Did they or did they not contribute just as much as everyone else in that fight to actually defeating that boss that dropped that piece of gear?

That's the bull**** logic I can't stand about how all the point-style systems work. The loot distribution should have no memory outside that current run. This run of Naxx/Whatever is a self-contained thing, if you come in to MY guild's runs and something drops that you want, you have an equal chance to win it as everyone else in the run who wants the item.

That said, we're also reasonably intelligent and mature people, if something drops that I want, and someone else is freaking out because OMG they've been trying for WEEKS to get that drop, and they're so happy and excited, I'm going to just NOT BE A DOUCHE and pass on it.

[tsugomaru]

The guild tries to be as fair to PUGs as possible. They will most likely get any item the roll on until we get to Saph or KT. Once we're there, pretty much the only way you can get an item from them is if no one else in the guild needs it. Plenty of hunters have gotten the gun that drops off KT because every hunter who attends the raids have it already.

Devonin, you're a special case. You're not an asshat that rolls on every single piece of gear that drops. You're probably like me and don't roll on gear that's only a slight improvement and opting to pass it to PUGs or guildies in the group where it will be a huge improvement. There's nothing wrong with us. If everyone who plays WoW rolls like we do, then there would be no need for loot rules.

It's not always like that for all people. You will see people who roll on every single item that's an improvement for them and win 6-7 items. The loot master has to draw the line somewhere and decided whether or not to allow one person to win 6-7 items in one raid or split the gear evenly amongst the people who came. Instead of gearing one rogue with 6-7 items, you can gear 3 rogues with 2 items. As people leave the raid, one rogue may have a negative feel because he didn't get as much gear as he should have, but he still got gear. The other 2 will be satisfied as well because they also got gear that they worked hard for.

Not all PUGs are treated the same in my guild. They are able to tell the difference between a good and bad PUG. Our main tank died twice within the same KT fight and a random druid pug switched to bear form and tanked the rest of it. He got the gear he wanted over the other druid who decided it would be cool to stand in the circles. Attendance in a fight is not the same thing as actually helping in a fight.

~Tsugomaru

[fido123]

What I implemented in my raid group is halving the rolls each time somebody gets a non teir upgrade. So if I win 2 items and roll a 100...roll 25.

EDIT: I mean when you roll on a teir item, it still halves your roll, however we don't cut up your roll.

[dood gone krazee]

I dunno what's happening, but I'm getting massive lag all of a sudden, making play impossible.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by dood gone krazee

I dunno what's happening, but I'm getting massive lag all of a sudden, making play impossible.

I've had problems with my Internet connection lately too. It even dropped off completely a few times.

Then my dad told me they were updating the lines to fiber optic and Internet was out for all of Michigan. I'd think he's exaggerting in scope, but is it possible something similar was happening on your end?

[Squeek]

Izzy, when I pug, I'm in the top 5 DPS every time. I never die unless it's a wipe and I offheal if the need calls for it. But just because I'm a pug member, I don't get to roll? What kind of logic is that?

Also, I don't even know how a group not pulling at least 2k DPS can down bosses with enrage timers. Care to explain that one to me?

And finally, your argument fails to realize one simple truth: even if you don't pug, you're rolling on gear. It might be "so easy" to get an 8% drop, but it's not "so easy" to roll against 10 other people for it and win it. So you're going to see it once every 14 weeks and you'll get the CHANCE to roll on it if it drops. Let's say you run with the same group all the time and it drops once every 14 weeks. Every time it drops, another person gets it and is out of the list of people who needs it. So then you go another 14 weeks, you see it again, and roll. Let's just say your rolls fail miserably and you don't get it until you're the very last one. That means you've waited 140 weeks to get the item, which is nearly three years.

SO EASY MIRITE

I'll likely never see myself holding a better weapon than the one I have just because of the odds of getting it.

[tsugomaru]

Just to be clear, our guild always allows you to roll on gear you need, it's just you may not get it if you have the top roll and the reason is usually more than justified.

~Tsugomaru

[Izzy]

I never said anything of the sort squeek. I was reffering to not pugging. Basically id rather not pug, but there are like no guilds anywhere for some reason. At least none that can cough up 25 people.

[Squeek]

Ah, see, Devo didn't quote who said that. Tsugo said that.

Stupid logic regardless.

Also my DK finally made it to Northrend and is now 70. Since I've already done this dance once, I know what quests to ignore this time around as they were just a massive pain in the ass the first time around. For example, the end of the chain starting with donning a cloak and infiltrating the scourge base. I'm gonna go ahead and skip all of that. The quest chain in Zul'Drak where you don a scourge outfit and infiltrate a base with your damn outfit falling apart every five minutes. Skipping that. There are so many others.

So far I think I'm going to make it an Unholy tank. I have no idea how good they are as I haven't exactly gone around asking what DK specs most people choose, but in the only experience I've had with tanking so far, I thought I did pretty damn well. While I was grinding out the last two levels in Nagrand, someone asked the zone if they wanted to join their Durn the Hungerer group. I accepted and soon found out it was just two DKs and me. One was Blood at level 70 and one was Frost at level 69. I was 66 and Unholy. We all switched to Frost Presence, of course, and had at him. I had aggro most of the time despite being in Outland gear. This was bad, actually, since I was also not the spec that could self-heal. Had to burn a potion and kill my pet to stay alive but we dropped him soon enough. Outland is totally not scaled for DKs, I've learned. It's all way too easy compared to other classes.

Speaking of Outland gear, once I got to Northrend I soon saw just how bad it was. The very first weapon quest reward gave me a 2H sword with a min damage higher than the max damage on my old one. The armor on my plate armor was almost twice as high.

[Izzy]

I am going to level another DK to 80 soon for the gold, and then delete it and do it again. Maybe to just 77 or everything before i need a mount.

[Solid Dreams]

Death Knights are really good aoe tanks, like paladins.

But they have more health, and they're better with magic.

[bender5]

In the whole debate over roll/dkp personally I prefer DKP. That's how my guild operates and it basically is a way to reward the people who attend the most raids with the most gear. Which prevents some undergeared idiot to just come in and say ok spend all the dkp I got tonight on one thing and then not raid til progression is done.

I'm not saying we are on progression now seeing as everything has been on farm since late Jan, but in the scheme of things if you were one of the original raid to down a boss why should someone who dodged progression and repair bills get an equal shot at the same loot as you?

[devonin]

why should someone who dodged progression and repair bills get an equal shot at the same loot as you?

I suspect your guild probably has a much higher instance of under18s who don't work full-time jobs.

You know why some people in my guild might "dodge progression"? Because they have a full-time job and two kids, and -maybe- one night every week or two they can be online long enough to come to a raid. Such a person should have a MUCH lesser chance to actually get good gear for them, just because they have a life outside WoW which consumes more of their time?

The alternative is that they get left way behind everyone in terms of gear, and when you're ready to go to 25-mans, they have barely even had a chance to get 10-man gear, and might as well just quit the guild and go somewhere else.

[bender5]

At 18 I think I am the second youngest person in the guild that actively raids. Everybody has jobs, college, wives, husbands or kids. The people that dodge progression are the people that are around my age in high school or people that don't try to get gear from anything but the 25 mans we do. They are the people that expect to be carried through to get gear when if they really wanted to have the gear they are more than capable of taking the time to attempt to get it.

That really pisses me off because it's obvious when someone is dodging progression. When we first got maly down we couldn't get a group to go, but my GM tricked people into coming by putting Naxx on the calendar and 33 people signed up as opposed to the 21 that signed up specifically for Maly.

And when I say I'm the second youngest to actively raid I mean attend all of the raids and progression. There are plenty of kids in my guild that play just don't raid like I do.

And yes people do get left behind in terms of gear, and then don't get to come to 25 mans because they aren't geared enough so they end up quitting the guild to find someone to carry them. We are trying to be as competitive as possible, and if it means you can't keep up that's unfortunate.