The Fitness Thread

[SCWolf]

I swear I'm the only one who doesn't find oatmeal filling.

[Reincarnate]

There has to be a way to order some Vector... srsly

[Senip]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

I am also reading that people like Orange Triads?

Right now I am using http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...rodid=11098484

That Animal Pak thing looks interesting, though... pricey, however

EDIT: I believe the fish oil I bought is http://www.vitaplus4u.com/product_im...82443_zoom.jpg also from Costco

Animal Pak is amazing, hands down. I havent gotten legitimately sick (other than bronchitis from moving in with smokers and some allergies) since I started taking it, in the year I've been lifting. Make sure you get a fair amount of DHA, studies seem to point to that being something all men need.

Originally Posted by SCWolf

Because I don't think I've showed you guys, this is my strongest genetic point. My legs.


What are your genetic strong points? Which body part do you think you'll accel in?

So far it's been arms and legs, really. My chest is huge but it's unknown whether its from residual fat boy gyno or not until I get the last bit shredded off, but my arms are 18 inches which is pretty good for a guy who's been lifting for only a year (and really, only dieting). My legs are massive, the last time I measured them they were around 25-26 inches, and I've got really good connection with the hamstrings and quads. Just gotta get that sweep! My traps are huge because of my job, which is really a burden just because when I flex, I flex my traps instead of my lats.

You should try not leaning over so much, that's why it looks like your traps are so huge, and it hides your chest etc.

Originally Posted by SCWolf

I swear I'm the only one who doesn't find oatmeal filling.

When I ate oatmeal, I'd eat it uncooked, with a few craisins, in milk. Like cereal. Kept me from feeling completely gross.

[Reincarnate]

sweet mother



Senip: You take all 11 of these every day? :O What other supplements are you taking, if any, and why?

[Senip]

That's actually no longer valid. But still, yeah, pak has everything you need on a daily basis.

They even throw in a uni-liver (also a supp I'd recommend if you can handle gas), which I love.

[Reincarnate]

My concern though, with supplements like these, is that they overdo it and throw the proper chemical ratios off.

I also came across something called AOR Ortho-Core which is one of the more expensive brands but uses good forms of vitamins/minerals in a decent chemical ratio. Have you ever tried this one?

[Reincarnate]

http://www.aor.ca/assets/Research/pd...5_article1.pdf

Haven't spot-checked/parsed this fully yet but it seems like a decent source to check out

[Tidus810]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

http://www.aor.ca/assets/Research/pd...5_article1.pdf

Haven't spot-checked/parsed this fully yet but it seems like a decent source to check out

As a chemistry geek I found this really interesting. Didn't read the whole thing yet, but the vitamin E explanation is pretty much spot on.

[Bahamut-X]

What the ****?

My problem with stuff like that is you could probably receive all or most of the vitamins and minerals in those pills from a simple meal like a chicken breast, side of broccoli and some wild rice. These vitamin companies are getting rich by convincing people that they are missing out on so much stuff.

I always like take my cue from nature. Look at how humans have BEEN doing things so far. We've been here many thousands of years, and for a massive majority of that time we haven't used vitamins and mineral "magic supplement pills" to be healthy and fit. All you need is a proper diet. Eat your veggies and fruits and you should be fine.

Like I said I'm starting to feel that the only supplement really worth looking into is fish oil, since unless you are an Alaskan nomad who goes fishing every day and lives off of salmon it's pretty hard to get all your omegas. Plus the vitamin D.

[Reincarnate]

While I agree with you, it is important to keep potential naturalistic fallacies at bay, too. A sufficiently balanced/sized diet suggests that supplementation isn't needed, but I think it's no different from using protein shakes to supplement meals so you aren't eating, say, chicken all the time in order to get what you need. A supplement is just something to help fill in the gaps if they exist -- but they certainly aren't panaceas, either.

Seems like the vast majority of vitamin supplements out there, though, are total shit. Right now I am just trying to understand the chemistry behind it so I can figure out which vitamins/minerals are provided from the food and how much might be needed from a multivitamin. This seems even more important when going on a cut since less food is being ingested.

Resolving my own ignorance is super tiring. ;-; Researching... gahhhh. Lots of bad info out there.

[Senip]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

My concern though, with supplements like these, is that they overdo it and throw the proper chemical ratios off.

I also came across something called AOR Ortho-Core which is one of the more expensive brands but uses good forms of vitamins/minerals in a decent chemical ratio. Have you ever tried this one?

Nope, but Universal has always been known for quality, which is pretty rare in the supp biz. They've been around since 1978, which is a long time for a supp company to hang around.

If you put too much thinking into it, you'll just stress yourself out and affect your outcome. They did the research, and millions of people swear by it (it's been the number 1 multi for decades by people who do any sort of fitness.)

[Bahamut-X]

I'm curious though, these people who "swear by it", what differences do they notice taking the multi? And are they able to undeniably contribute any differences to the multi alone?

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

While I agree with you, it is important to keep potential naturalistic fallacies at bay, too. A sufficiently balanced/sized diet suggests that supplementation isn't needed, but I think it's no different from using protein shakes to supplement meals so you aren't eating, say, chicken all the time in order to get what you need. A supplement is just something to help fill in the gaps if they exist -- but they certainly aren't panaceas, either.

I don't think it's quite accurate to compare it to a protein shake, only because many multis and supplements aren't absorbed very well by the body (or at all). Hence the argument "multis just make your piss expensive", since a great majority of it will slide right through your body and end up in your urine. With a protein shake I don't think this is as much of an issue since whey is a natural product of milk and not a synthetic man made conglomeration, so the body responds to it more naturally and treats it like any other source of protein.

Now this may not be the case with all multis. For all I know that animal pack or whatever it's called could work wonders. But from the little information I've gathered this is what makes sense to me right now.

[Reincarnate]

I feel like a lot of it is likely placebo effect TBH
</might be totally wrong but maybe not>

Originally Posted by Bahamut-X

I don't think it's quite accurate to compare it to a protein shake, only because many multis and supplements aren't absorbed very well by the body (or at all). Hence the argument "multis just make your piss expensive", since a great majority of it will slide right through your body and end up in your urine. With a protein shake I don't think this is as much of an issue since whey is a natural product of milk and not a synthetic man made conglomeration, so the body responds to it more naturally and treats it like any other source of protein.

Now this may not be the case with all multis. For all I know that animal pack or whatever it's called could work wonders. But from the little information I've gathered this is what makes sense to me right now.

Well I mean clearly the two differ in many ways that make the analogy imperfect. I am just pointing out that supplements in general are, well, supplements. They're not meant to necessarily replace what is lost, but rather just help keep you from being deficient.

Personally I don't yet know all the nuances of how the body absorbs stuff and if there are any other complicating factors by taking different types of minerals/vitamins together or what happens if there's an imbalance, etc. It seems like a pretty complex problem.

[Senip]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

I feel like a lot of it is likely placebo effect TBH
</might be totally wrong but maybe not>

Honestly, it's up to you man. But here's how I see it: I used to get sick constantly, colds, flu, random fevers. I didnt process things very well, I didn't ever have any energy.

I started taking animal pak by itself, and I have not gotten sick, I don't feel bloated/full all the time, and I feel so much better just in general (other than some general aches and pains), and almost across the board people agree with me.

So for me, unless I go completely broke, I'll keep using my animal pak.


One of the things I like (and dude above touched on) is that most multis are heavily pressed: this makes it SUPER DIFFICULT to process, and you tend to just crap em/piss em out.

Animal Pak has different pressing levels, so that everything breaks down at a specific rate, giving you nutrients when you need em. Yeah, you get "pak piss" as they call it, but thats because they put enough b12 in there to kill a small yak.

[Reincarnate]

Have you tried anything besides Animal Pak, out of curiosity?

EDIT: To be clear I'm not saying Animal Pak is placebo or anything -- I just feel like I need to understand supplements on a chemical level as opposed to "a million people use it and feel great." If it actually works then that's fantastic, but I still want to figure out *why* people feel great when using it and if they'd feel just as good using, say, OT or Ortho.

[Senip]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

Have you tried anything besides Animal Pak, out of curiosity?

EDIT: To be clear I'm not saying Animal Pak is placebo or anything -- I just feel like I need to understand supplements on a chemical level as opposed to "a million people use it and feel great." If it actually works then that's fantastic, but I still want to figure out *why* people feel great when using it and if they'd feel just as good using, say, OT or Ortho.

I've used yours, and I've tried orange triad, etc. A lot of supp companies are copying Animal Pak, but not very many actually get it right. I touched on one of the reasons Pak is so good above though.
I also have used gland-all, which I liked, and I use sportpharma (owned by uni)'s multi-v.

[Reach]

Honestly, it's up to you man. But here's how I see it: I used to get sick constantly, colds, flu, random fevers. I didnt process things very well, I didn't ever have any energy.

I started taking animal pak by itself, and I have not gotten sick, I don't feel bloated/full all the time, and I feel so much better just in general (other than some general aches and pains), and almost across the board people agree with me.

I am wondering; when did you start taking animal pak?

Because the symptoms you describe sound like...symptoms of obesity, and I know you lost a ton of weight.

When I was overweight I was sick a lot, never had any energy, felt gross all the time, lethargic and 'light headed' when I didn't eat all the time.

Lost weight, exercised, problems went away.


Mind you, I also changed my diet, so maybe some of these things are vitamin related, but I definitely feel like this is only necessary for people with a diet with limited variety.

[Reincarnate]

Originally Posted by Reach

When I was overweight I was sick a lot, never had any energy, felt gross all the time, lethargic and 'light headed' when I didn't eat all the time.

<----------------

[Senip]

Originally Posted by Reach

I am wondering; when did you start taking animal pak?

Because the symptoms you describe sound like...symptoms of obesity, and I know you lost a ton of weight.

When I was overweight I was sick a lot, never had any energy, felt gross all the time, lethargic and 'light headed' when I didn't eat all the time.

Lost weight, exercised, problems went away.


Mind you, I also changed my diet, so maybe some of these things are vitamin related, but I definitely feel like this is only necessary for people with a diet with limited variety.

I was 270ish when I started using pak, so I was at like 20%. Not exactly fit and trim, but not obese. I've always gotten really sick though, even when I was a football player I'd play through with colds, and I was at 12-15% then.

[Cavernio]

Originally Posted by Senip

Honestly, it's up to you man. But here's how I see it: I used to get sick constantly, colds, flu, random fevers. I didnt process things very well, I didn't ever have any energy.

I started taking animal pak by itself, and I have not gotten sick, I don't feel bloated/full all the time, and I feel so much better just in general (other than some general aches and pains), and almost across the board people agree with me.

So for me, unless I go completely broke, I'll keep using my animal pak.

You've just described a bunch of celiac disease symptoms as I know them as well as confirmed you're deficient in vitamins. The vitamin deficiency is the outcome of celiac disease as the immune system destroys one's own intestines along with the gluten it's try to get rid of. Since being dx as a celiac and not eating gluten and dairy, I have not had any random hot or cold spells or chills or feeling like I'm getting the flu and running a fever but my temp. is actually low. And no, my thyroid's been tested before and since being gluten free, and it's all in the right range. I've also lost about 90% of my bloat (well it's acted up again recently, I must have eaten something wrong, probably the chocolate that might have traces of dairy). I'm still waiting for higher energy and concentration levels though, like I used to have.
Anyways, you should definitely tell a doctor about that and make them look into your intestinal health, not just for celiac disease but for any parasitic, fungal, bacterial or simple inflammatory issues in your digestive system. If you're that deficient in nutrition, there's something wrong.


I don't even take multivitamins, although I do take individual vitamins. I take iron because I'm often borderline deficient, and I'm off and on with b vitamins particularly b12, I plan on taking some vit D this winter (milk is always supplemented with it but i don't have dairy anymore), I occasionally take some zinc because I've read not having enough of it in balance with copper is, like, the explanation for PMS. I choose not to take multivitamins for a couple of reasons: they make me constipated (because I'm taking all my minerals at once), they don't emphasize the nutrients I want properly (basically useless amounts of b12 but potentially damaging doses of b6), and lastly so many nutrients seem to compete with one another for absorption that even if I need them, I figure I won't be getting them anyways when I take them all at once.
I make myself eat liver a couple times a month. It's actually kinda tasty when made into a pate or when hidden in a ton of onions and bacon.

The proper way to do all this is really to get someone to run your bloodwork and find out exactly what you're low in and what you're high in, and start from there. Being the US you should be able to find a healthcare professional to do that for you, provided you can pay.

No one would need to supplement omega 3's if diets weren't insanely high in omega 6s and 9s. Cut out vegetable oils of all types and most people's ratios would be fine.

Also, in reference to a much older post, I find the best way to not eat a whole (or almost a whole) bag of chips, for example, is to not buy any in the first place. It only requires 1 moment of will-power to not buy the chips, but once they're in your house, it's constant willpower needed when you're at home. It helps to only grocery shop when you're full. Unfortunately this doesn't work when at work, and maybe it doesn't work for less lazy people, who don't mind going to store to get chips when they want chips but there's none in the house.

Oh one last thing, if you want to understand supplements properly, I think you need to devote your life to researching them. It's clearly incredibly complex.