Homosexual Marriage

[hayatewillown]

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

No offense, but is English your first language?

Excuse me Kilroy? Are you targeting me?

And first of all, I only asked a few questions. Targeting me specifically is not cool.

Lets also go along with what I said. I asked if there is a religion. I researched a bit, and not many religions support homosexuality. A lot of them consider it an abomination.

[psychopete]

Originally Posted by hayatewillown

Excuse me Kilroy? Are you targeting me?

And first of all, I only asked a few questions. Targeting me specifically is not cool.

Lets also go along with what I said. I asked if there is a religion. I researched a bit, and not many religions support homosexuality. A lot of them consider it an abomination.

He targeted you because you made an incoherent response.

Also, there is no one SET religion for homosexuals. People believe what they want. Just because someone is homosexual doesn't mean they can't be religious (my friend's pastor at their church is gay, for instance).

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by hayatewillown

Lets also go along with what I said. I asked if there is a religion. I researched a bit, and not many religions support homosexuality. A lot of them consider it an abomination.

A lot =/= all. There happen to be gay clergy in several denominations of Christianity, and positions on homosexuality and gay marriage vary not just from denomination but from person to person. Remember, Catholicism is virtually the only sect of the Christian religion with a central authority. Eastern religions often condemn sexuality outright rather than homosexuality specifically, but like most religions have differences in expectation between clergy and laymen.

[JonoSasson]

Question. What religion do homosexuals believe in, or is there no religion?

Well, saying outright that "there is no religion" is like denying life itself. But phrasing it like, "Do gays believe in order to be together, must they disregard religion to do so?", not at all I say. It's been said already that there are gay sects in catholicism etc. I'm Jewish myself. Not that I practise Jeudaism, but there's no denying I'm not Jewish, I mean my mum is, automatically makes me one. I'm not about to go and deny what I am. There are aspects to 'Jewish lifestyle' I thoroughly enjoy; Bar Mitzvahs (went to a cousin's this weekend, good fun!), Friday night dinner... I may not believe there is a god of sorts, nor do I believe that everything I do is to be judged etc, but I'm jewish and I don't go around denouncing my faith.

What ... do homosexuals believe in

Man love? and politics, a free world, studying... you know, straight man and woman stuff.

Yeah I left out an important word there, but hey, for all the skeptics out there, we're no different. That's my point.

[ToshX]

Meh, homosexuals can be Christian.

Are Christians supposed to lie? Well no, but do they do it? Yeah, because everyone lies. It's something that they happen to do, whether for personal reasons or to keep bad things from happening, on instinct. They're not perfect, because no one is perfect, and everyone does SOMETHING that goes against their beliefs at least sometime in their lives. How would homosexuality be any different?

To be completely honest, most of my non-straight friends aren't Christians, and I can't think of an example of one who is, but that certainly doesn't mean there are none. I'm sure there are many, in fact. Why? Because there's all sorts of people, and those people have the right to believe whatever they want. That being said, they will do so.

[tha Guardians]

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

"ooh look, twins! One gay, one straight! That must mean behavioral causes rather than biological". Yeah, no. While it is true that twins more often share cognitive, genetic, and biological traits even in "identical" twins there are no traits shared perfectly. This holds in Psychology and Biology. "suggestive"? Not even close. Similarly a lot of other studies shown have no implications whatsoever. Rats respond to hormone treatment in utero? That's nice, Rats also have faster development cycles. Human beings cognitive development is drastically different from that of a Rat. People can pick out Homosexuals from videos of their motions? The supposed implication is that there is "feminization" of the part of the brain responsible for motion. Well, despite this being fairly comparable to a centuries old Jungian psychological concept, this doesn't actually give us any important data. Even if we were to accept this assumption, it hardly answers the question of whether homosexuality is an acquired or ascribed state of being. No, that page is mostly a regurgitation of the same fuss that's been going around on the subject since it first entered academia. It's good to know about, but not new, nor helpful.

I know a set of "identical twins" with different hair color, and I even know a set of "identical triplets" (yes it is possible) and one is transgender, or prefers the opposite gender of the one they were given. They may be alike in numerous ways, but they developed differently, because eventually, the egg does split, and gives them sometimes minor or major differences.

[tha Guardians]

Originally Posted by ToshX

Meh, homosexuals can be Christian.

Are Christians supposed to lie? Well no, but do they do it? Yeah, because everyone lies. It's something that they happen to do, whether for personal reasons or to keep bad things from happening, on instinct. They're not perfect, because no one is perfect, and everyone does SOMETHING that goes against their beliefs at least sometime in their lives. How would homosexuality be any different?

To be completely honest, most of my non-straight friends aren't Christians, and I can't think of an example of one who is, but that certainly doesn't mean there are none. I'm sure there are many, in fact. Why? Because there's all sorts of people, and those people have the right to believe whatever they want. That being said, they will do so.

This is a bit more dramatic than your post: Where I live, Judaism is as rare as Satanism, so there aren't any synagogs, but I know two Jews who go to Christian churches. They don't believe in all the parts of the Bible, but I think they believe in the most important part, and the fundamental--God.

OT: Alot of people treat Jesus as if he is better than God, and many people forget (if they believe) that Jesus is God, or the son of God if you will. Jesus may have died on a cross for our sins to allow us to enter heaven, but who made heaven? Who made us?

[Relambrien]

Originally Posted by tha Guardians

OT: Alot of people treat Jesus as if he is better than God, and many people forget (if they believe) that Jesus is God, or the son of God if you will. Jesus may have died on a cross for our sins to allow us to enter heaven, but who made heaven? Who made us?

That probably belongs in the thread here titled "God," since that's where the discussion seems to be at.

I don't really have much else to say, as everything else I believe has already been said one way or another.

[Garthhh]

America is a place where you have the freedom of religion. Just because Christianity says that marriage is between a man and a woman doesn't mean that the law should say the same thing. The government weds atheists and agnostics all the time.

For example, my cousin and his wife were married in a non religious manner. They did not have a priest, pastor, reverend, or other religious figure wed them. They did not have anything from any religious book read at their wedding. But, the state still wed them.

What is the difference for homosexuals? The government already weds non Christians. Just because the religion of the majority of Americans says one thing doesn't mean you should take fundamental rights away from the minority.

[das1ngerplayer]

This is a disgusting issue. It sickens me when I see two homosexual people together that truely love each other and would want to get married or something.

If people want to do things in the privacy of their home that's not my issue, when they bring it in public and want to take it furhter, is what ticks me off.

I'm 100% against gay marraige, it's disgusting. I understand when people use it as a joke or making fun of them but when it's serious I have a problem with it. A good example is in movies, it may be funny and all but that still does not mean it's right.

This is an issue where I don't care what anyone else says, I will always be against it, and strongly. I don't care about the "rights" gays say they have. I say NO, and many others out there do too.

[Kilroy_x]

You know what's disgusting? You are.

Originally Posted by das1ngerplayer

This is a disgusting issue. It sickens me when I see two homosexual people together that truely love each other and would want to get married or something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

I don't care about the "rights" gays say they have. I say NO, and many others out there do too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

You know what? Even if you don't care, the constitution cares, and that's an opinion that actually matters.

Originally Posted by das1ngerplayer

This is an issue where I don't care what anyone else says, I will always be against it, and strongly.

GTFO Critical Thinking

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Just remember, it's thoughts against gay marriages that value thoughts against life, liberty, or property without justification. Name any of those things that homosexuals have taken from our society. Not a single thing has homosexuality done to our rights and society besides reduce the population. What makes it any more proper or "normal" to love a girl if you are a guy besides the fact that a guy and a girl can create children or any assumptions by religion?

[das1ngerplayer]

I don't exactly get why you put those links there kilroy, maybe you should explain in your words why you linked to those wikipedia sites. Also, I've heard other sides on plenty of issues, including homosexuality in general, but I have never had a different opinion on it. I would bring religion into this, party of what I base my beliefs off, but my guess would be that you woudn't care. I base a lot of my views of religion, so if your not religious then it wouldn't make any sense arguing with you, it would be a never ending arguement to the point where it would make no sense. Also, if the Constitution cares so much, then how come the majority of states voted against allowing gay marraige?

Here's some common sense: Our founding fathers were the ones who wrote the Constitution. I would bet that they did not consider homosexuality an issue, if they did then I would be they were aginst it since they were religous. I doubt homosexuality was hardly an issue 200 years ago.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

Even if you don't care, the constitution cares

Originally Posted by das1ngerplayer

I would bring religion into this, party of what I base my beliefs off, but my guess would be that you woudn't care.

Church and State, two great tastes that by one of the most strongly enforced laws of your country do not taste great together in any way shape or form.

You can't argue politics via religion, and you can't argue religion via politics. They are seperate and distinct by deliberate purpose.

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by das1ngerplayer

I don't exactly get why you put those links there kilroy, maybe you should explain what part of my words you thing the sites fit.

Sure. For the first link, I was responding to how you are making a knee-jerk emotional reaction the basis for a firmly entrenched belief. For the second I was responding to your assertion that many people dislike homosexuality by pointing out the role the constitution is supposed to play in preventing the infringement of rights even when those rights are used in a way that is unpopular.

Also, I've heard other sides on plenty of issues, including homosexuality in general, but I have never had a different opinion on it.

That doesn't mean you won't ever have a different opinion on it. At least it shouldn't mean that, if you conduct yourself with any degree of honesty.

I would bring religion into this, party of what I base my beliefs off, but my guess would be that you woudn't care.

I might care, I might not. I have practically no experience with theological matters, so I likely wouldn't be able to engage you in a textual discussion, and given the nature of faith it is unlikely you would accept criticism from a source external to the bible. If you're that sort of person, then no I wouldn't grant your beliefs any legitimacy, because there's no evidence or argument you would accept that contradicts your belief. Unless a person is willing to test their beliefs against external perspectives, there's no point in discussion for either party.

Originally Posted by das1ngerplayer

I base a lot of my views of religion, so if your not religious then it wouldn't make any sense arguing with you, it would be a never ending arguement to the point where it would make no sense.

Perhaps your inability to make sense of such arguments has to do with your inability to actually consider alternate perspectives.

Also, if the Constitution cares so much, then how come the majority of states voted against allowing gay marraige?

Firstly because the constitution has to be interpreted, and the interpreters are often misguided. Secondly because the constitution leaves all issues not stated in the constitution to the individual states for determination. As a note, the courts have ruled gay marriage bans unconstitutional in at least some instances. If you like I can tell you the purely constitutional basis for allowing gay marriage.

Here's some common sense: Our founding fathers were the ones who wrote the Constitution. I would bet that they did not consider homosexuality an issue, if they did then I would be they were aginst it since they were religous. I doubt homosexuality was hardly an issue 200 years ago.

Our founding fathers were deists, for the most part. They grew up in a climate with heavy religious fervor, and events such as Salem were still fresh in the national consciousness. They designed government to operate independently from religion for that and other reasons. Whether or not homosexuality was an issue back then, it would not be in the interest of the founding fathers to base law off of religion.

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by devonin

Church and State, two great tastes that by one of the most strongly enforced laws of your country do not taste great together in any way shape or form.

Not so strongly enforced, unfortunately. I don't particularly approve of either church or state in any form, but at the same time recognizing one of the ideal functions of the state and agreeing with it I feel obligated to defend the ideal.

You can't argue politics via religion, and you can't argue religion via politics. They are seperate and distinct by deliberate purpose.

Religion is separated from politics as part of a political mandate. It's the enforcement of this political mandate that ideally prevents a certain evil, therefore in this case the political justification, given from the moral justification, is in contrast with an immoral manifestation of religion.

So yes, in this particular case I can and most certainly will argue against religion via politics, although I must recognize that it's the moral basis of the political mechanism which is the real issue.

[psychopete]

Originally Posted by das1ngerplayer

This is a disgusting issue. It sickens me when I see two homosexual people together that truely love each other and would want to get married or something.

If people want to do things in the privacy of their home that's not my issue, when they bring it in public and want to take it furhter, is what ticks me off.

I'm 100% against gay marraige, it's disgusting. I understand when people use it as a joke or making fun of them but when it's serious I have a problem with it. A good example is in movies, it may be funny and all but that still does not mean it's right.

This is an issue where I don't care what anyone else says, I will always be against it, and strongly. I don't care about the "rights" gays say they have. I say NO, and many others out there do too.

Is there something truely wrong and evil about two people loving each other, regardless of gender?

So, you're saying we don't have rights? Read a little thing called the United States Constitution, then come back to me.

Originally Posted by das1ngerplayer

I don't exactly get why you put those links there kilroy, maybe you should explain in your words why you linked to those wikipedia sites. Also, I've heard other sides on plenty of issues, including homosexuality in general, but I have never had a different opinion on it. I would bring religion into this, party of what I base my beliefs off, but my guess would be that you woudn't care. I base a lot of my views of religion, so if your not religious then it wouldn't make any sense arguing with you, it would be a never ending arguement to the point where it would make no sense. Also, if the Constitution cares so much, then how come the majority of states voted against allowing gay marraige?

Here's some common sense: Our founding fathers were the ones who wrote the Constitution. I would bet that they did not consider homosexuality an issue, if they did then I would be they were aginst it since they were religous. I doubt homosexuality was hardly an issue 200 years ago.

Religious views being the basis for your political beliefs isn't doing much to support your arguement.

You say it's disgusting and wrong, but tell me, what is so disgusting about it to you? You need to support your statements or shut up.

[Melone Marshe]

The greatest "wrong" I can see with homosexual marriage is the fact that the two can't have children together. But then, this is a very remotely minor issue to me, as love doesn't require having children to begin with. Actually, being married has no real link to having children anyways, so this point is moot...that is to say, I see absolutely nothing wrong with homosexual marriage.

Marriage is supposed to be about a bond between two people who truly care about each other, and wish to spend their lives together. What's it matter if the two people who share such a strong bond are guys or girls? Not to mention, in reply to one poster...a gay couple getting married isn't "throwing their gayness" in your face any more than a straight couple throwing their..."straightness" in your face.

And to you guys who keep saying "OMG IT'S GROSS"...why? Because the contents of one-another's pants aren't different? Love isn't simple like a preschooler block puzzle, but if you think it is, maybe you should just go back to preschool until you can at least figure out the block puzzle first.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

The only issue I would say that has nothing to do with religion is the fact that homosexuals can't have children. Why would anyone care about somebody else's business anyways? Men and women marry and sometimes they don't want to ever have children. Sometimes men and women can't even have children. In no regards to religion, wouldn't a homosexual be just like these people? If you are going to deny rights to homosexuals, you might as well deny rights to infertile people or people who are not willing to have children.

[Kamunt]

I'm trying to figure out where to jump back into this "debate" here, but I'm having difficulty finding an appropriate place. Would've been so much easier to have just stayed active in the topic, but I suppose Finals take precedence over Internet morality, etc. debates, don't they? I could continue the textual flogging of das1, but that seems wholly unnecessary. Hmm...I suppose I should just sit back for awhile until I find my proper place to fall into line.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Melone Marshe

...to you guys who keep saying "OMG IT'S GROSS"...why? Because the contents of one-another's pants aren't different? Love isn't simple like a preschooler block puzzle, but if you think it is, maybe you should just go back to preschool until you can at least figure out the block puzzle first.

This made me physically laugh. It's funny because it's true, though, I suppose. :3