10-15-2011, 11:33 PM | #21 |
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Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?
The only bad part is the dumb white bitch screaming for the cops. Other than that you can't see any good stuff.
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10-16-2011, 02:20 PM | #22 | |||||||||
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Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?
iironic
Hindsight is always 20/20. When aggravated customers assault you THEN proceed to jump the counter and come at you, that in itself is threatening and probably terrifying. I've been in similar situations and you just act out of instinct. remedy Quote:
bmah It wasn't just the slap in the face or else that man totally deserves to go to jail. He was slapped in the face, walked down the counter AWAY from them, then they BOTH jumped the counter and walked towards him to confront him. Those actions alone aren't life threatening but just like how you can assume somebody with boozed up breath is drunk, you can assume these women were going to assault the man further. Quote:
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I can't verify anything there, nor do I browse that board but I've gotten a few links from there that are ridiculous. It happens, and I'm not saying it's happening in this case, the cops don't definitely know what happened and those women must have been beaten pretty bad so it's understandable why he's in jail while he awaits trial. I also listen to a lot of talk radio and there's a lot of bias such as the way people were viewing the incident this show was talking about, and how men get stimped often in child custody battles. Superfreak Quote:
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Emithith This is the kind of thinking I can't stand. Two females are capable of killing a man so why is he not allowed to defend himself? Why do they deserve extra sympathy? I think this kind of thinking belongs in the 1950's and is plain ignorant. Women should be held to the same social standards as men, and I think it's plain ignorance to think anything else. Any women who argues me on this I usually respond with telling them if they don't want true equality they should get back to the kitchen. Last edited by fido123; 10-16-2011 at 02:33 PM.. |
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10-16-2011, 05:19 PM | #23 |
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Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?
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How do you know if he didn't do that those two women wouldn't have beaten him to death? That would have been worse. The odds of 2 women beating the man to death a very slim, especially if he has co-workers around him. I would assume that if they literally started beating him to death, someone would have stopped the two in some fashion. Although some will just sit and watch, there are those who man up and try and help. The women were trying to get back up and he only hit them when they tried to. If they got back up there's a good chance I bet he doesn't want to take that they're both going to grab something and go apeshit on him. I don't believe so. I was reading some of the comments, but the two girls who were getting beaten begged him to stop? And no, I'm not talking about the other woman that came and was all "OMFG STOP OMG!". I'm pretty sure those two women wouldn't have tried anything after getting up since they just got beaten with a metal object. That would be like saying "Damn, I just got my ass kicked, I'm gonna try and get up and beat him up, even though I just got my ass handed to me, and I'm wounded." The man could have easily just said, "Stay the **** down", or something along those lines. I mean think about it. If YOU were one of those women, and you just got the shit beat out of you, and the person has a club, and points it at you and tells you to stay down, are you dumb enough to get back up, only to be knocked back down, and possibly killed? I understand this is an extreme example, but the same principle applies that the man could have easily just stepped back after getting them on the ground. Now lets say he actually did that, and just stepped back instead of continuously beating them. If they were to chase him, THEY would get charged because the threat is no longer an imminent threat. He would still get charged most likely, but they were get a serious charge as well. You have to realize that self defense only applies to something that is imminent. Example: If a guy is to rob your house, and runs out the front door, you can't chase him with a bat and beat him to get your belongings back. If you do, you just committed battery, and could be put in jail for it, EVEN THOUGH your intentions were to get your belongings back. Yeah, the law is ****ed up lol. Quote: If people are putting you in a dangerous situation and you want out, I'm not going to put myself even on their grounds. I'm going to grab something to give me an edge to make sure those women aren't going to possibly beat me to death, break my bones, or get me so injured I can't work for a while any more. Although I do agree with you that I myself would do anything to keep myself from harm, even if it is involving weapons, but that's not how the law works. But as I said, it has to be IMMINENT DANGER. If you have the people on the ground hurting, you've done all you're allowed to do. Granted the people kept getting up, but you don't know what there next intentions were. What if the couple was going to get up and possibly try and leave the store? Therefore, you can't keep beating the person just because they are trying to get up. It is stupid, but that's how it works unfortunately. ALSO: "That's a law I'm pretty sure only exists in Canada and personally sickens me. I'm sorry but if somebody comes at me with a knife and I have a gun I'm shooting them. If somebody is going to threaten me with physical damaging assault you should be able to stop them using the most reasonable force you have access to, and take into consideration that THEY'RE putting you in a situation you aren't trained to react to, and don't know how to react to. If you react to it poorly it's their fault and should be all on them IMO. I think it's personally totally justified to sue lets say a McDonalds if on the job one of their employees physically threatened your life, and you killed them and now have mental anguish because of it." To answer this, YES you can use a gun if someone is coming at you with a knife. Why is that? Because if the persons intention is to kill you, you have the right to use deadly force. Hence why I've seen a cop video where a teenage guy was walking towards a cop car with a bat in his hand. The cop aimed his gun at him and ordered him to stop and pout the weapon down, and hands up. The boy kept walking towards the car, so the cop shot him. It's justified because the cop clearly stated for him to put the weapon down, but it was still an imminent threat because the boy was getting closer and closer.
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10-16-2011, 05:37 PM | #24 | |||||
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Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?
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10-16-2011, 05:53 PM | #25 |
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Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?
Again, civilians aren't trained how to handle these situations. If you're in a fight of flight situation and you hit a somebody on the ground and they keep trying to get back up you're going to start freaking out. I would be disgusted if a cop were to commit these actions because this is not the best way at handling the situation, but it's the best you can expect out of a McDonald's employee who's possibly scared for his life.
A cop would have gotten them on the ground and cuffed them. Of course a civilian can't do that, but I'm just saying. The Mc Donalds employee simply just over did it, and could have handled the situation, without putting these two in a hospital. "The situation was an imminent threat. The women were attacking him so he defended himself. After they were on the ground they kept trying to get back up making them a threat. If they ran out the McDonald's and he chased them I'd see your point." But, they are just getting up from the ground? As I've said. He should have stepped far back to see what they were going to do. Lets say you're in a fight, and you beat the guy down. And you start walking backwards, but still keeping an eye on the guy to see if he's getting up. If he starts to get up, are you going to run back over to him and kick him back down? You better not, because he is no longer a threat because you had him pinned down. "I'm not talking about the law I'm talking about something being "Just". You equally don't know if those women are going to get up, run half way across the store and pull out a gun." And that's why I say the law isn't totally fair. As I've said, I would beat the person so that they would never do something like that again. But this isn't a total free country. That's why cops are trained the way the are. If you're gonna be in law enforcement, you have to know how to play the game, and live by the rules.
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10-16-2011, 06:07 PM | #26 | ||
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Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?
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10-16-2011, 06:09 PM | #27 |
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Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?
One thing I don't get is how can a slap in the face make you guys that indimidated to actually go as far as beating them that bad.
I've actually been in the same situation, someone slapped me in the face and was about to punch me in the face but I punched him back before he did, in the face. He fell on the ground, then I kicked him a few times in the stomach and walked away. He came back to school the day after with no bruises or anything, and hasn't made a single eye contact with me since. My point is, there is no merit in using a metal object to repeatedly beat someone just because you feel endangered. She's ****ing beat up, you think when she's trying to get up she's gonna beat the hell out of you? have some common sense...
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10-16-2011, 06:15 PM | #28 |
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Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?
In the video you can hear the girls screaming "Stop it!" louder and louder each time. That sounds like pleading to me, not "I'm going to get back up and hit you again". I think the guy should've taken some cues.
Yeah the girls followed the guy before he beat them up and tried to get up after that, but their cries are a pretty apparent reason the employee should've stopped. |
10-16-2011, 06:19 PM | #29 |
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Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?
"It's easy to see that in hindsight but the man was obviously scared, possibly for his life cause you have no idea what those women were concealing or would do. I'm not saying he couldn't have handled it better, but like I've been saying, if you've ever been in one of these situations you panic."
Keyword "panic". That will NOT hold up in court at all. Just because you panic, doesn't give you the right to do what you did. So this is why I said what he should have done. "Last thing you want to do is let somebody back up after you just beat them. They are unbelievably pissed and will do unbelievable things. They could just have just been getting up to flee, but they could have also gotten up, walked halfway across the store and shot him. If you previously pinned somebody to the ground they are STILL a threat cause they can get back up and further attack you, however if you keep them pinned they are not a threat and this is all the guy was doing." Of course there is no way to know what the person is going to do, but that's what sucks about the law. "If you previously pinned somebody to the ground they are STILL a threat cause they can get back up and further attack you, however if you keep them pinned they are not a threat and this is all the guy was doing." Actually this is an EXACT situation we talked about in class. Actually, he is NOT a threat if you pinned him down and you're walking away. He is not a threat because he isn't attacking you or anything of that sort, he's simply getting up from the ground. Once he starts chasing you, then it's an imminent threat.
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10-16-2011, 06:20 PM | #30 | ||||||
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Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?
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10-16-2011, 06:46 PM | #31 |
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Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?
fido123:"When somebody FORCES you into a state of panic through their actions which endanger you I think it's more than understandable for that person not to do the ideal thing. If I attacked you and you were put in this state and couldn't respond properly (Biological Fact) isn't it my fault you're in that state in the first place? I attacked you so you must either fight or flight and he was cornered. He tried to get away but they followed him."
Superfreak04:Sure it's your fault, but you have to understand on HOW HE HANDLED THE SITUATION. He overdid it. He took a metal object (WHICH IS A LETHAL WEAPON) and started to beat them. That's like saying, "Since they jumped over the counter, I'm in panic mode. My instinct is to grab a knife and stab them because I'm in danger." Yeah, just because you're in panic mode, doesn't mean shit in a court. Let me repeat that, IT DOESN'T MEAN SHIT IN COURT. If it comes down to that, they will put you down for medical help + a prison sentence. fido123: "We're not talking about what's the law, we're talking about what's just." Superfreak04: Okay, then simply put, yeah he was defending himself. But, it's not that simple. I thought this was a debate on if it was right that he got charged with what he did. Which is what I'm trying to explain. fido123: "Is an unexploded yet armed bomb a threat? So is somebody who's attacking you who just so happens to be beaten the ground. If they get back up there's a good chance they're going to attack you and therefore a threat. Minimize the threat by keeping them down. The police don't pin people then walk around cause they're not ****ing retarded." Superfreak04: You're comparing a bomb to a person, lol.......... I'll put this in a step by step form to clarify everything based on your post. 1.)"So is somebody who's attacking you who just so happens to be beaten the ground." - BAM YOU'RE DONE, JUST WALK AWAY. 2.) "Minimize the threat by keeping them down." - Yes, which is what HANDCUFFS ARE FOR. Why do you think cops aren't supposed to just repeatedly beat the shit out of people to "minimize the threat"? 3.) "The police don't pin people then walk around cause they're not ****ing retarded." - Yeah, that's why they put them in handcuffs instead of beating them. Ever hear about the "Rodney King Incident"? PRIME EXAMPLE, why you can't do that. "Rodney Glen King (born April 2, 1965) is an American best known for his involvement in a police brutality case involving the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) on March 3, 1991. A bystander, George Holliday, videotaped much of the incident from a distance. The footage showed LAPD officers repeatedly striking King with their batons while other officers stood by watching, without taking any action to stop the beating". Now, compare the Mc Donalds employee to the officers. Same thing because they aren't a threat, they are just trying to get up from the ground.
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10-16-2011, 06:54 PM | #32 | |||||||
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Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?
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I did, it's called an analogy. Quote:
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Also could you please use the built in quote function? It makes quoting you far easier. You can simply copy paste the same quote header (QUOTE=Superfreak04;3552146) above each quote ending them with a [/quote]. Even just [quote]stuff[/quote] would be good for example: Quote:
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10-16-2011, 07:23 PM | #33 |
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Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?
Okay, I'm going to stop this debate since you want it all "In just" form.
In Just form: Yes he was defending himself. But "just form" doesn't mean anything in a court of law. You'd have to take a criminal law class to understand where I'm coming from. If you did, you will understand why he got charged with what he did. If you want to talk about this on AIM or something, I gladly will. All contact info is on my profile.
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10-16-2011, 07:28 PM | #34 |
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Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?
Feel free to talk about what the courts will do, I already know why he's currently charged and I'm unclear if he'll get away scott free although I hope so. I'd contact you on AIM but it seems we agree. Contact me at "pretentiousbeard" on AIM if you think we don't.
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10-16-2011, 07:32 PM | #35 | |
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Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?
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He already defended himself with a show of strength. But when they were on the ground and he continued it became assault. Any other thinking is morally wrong. Furthermore, it is scientifically proven that Women are physically weaker than Men. While they should be allowed the same rights, e.g. Jobs, voting, etcetera, it is bigoted to think that they can only have 2 shades of rights (black and white is to "kitchen" and full rights) when there are many shades in between. I am in no way a women's activist, or a feminist, but that way of thinking pisses me off. edit: I also give them extra "sympathy" because it became assault after he had them on the ground. I do not give them extra points for being women, or even if the situation was turned around I wouldn't give extra points to the males. Last edited by Emithith; 10-16-2011 at 07:34 PM.. |
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10-16-2011, 07:40 PM | #36 | ||
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Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?
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10-16-2011, 07:42 PM | #37 |
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Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?
Okay, I see your point. I thought you were saying that patriarchy is okay. Totally wrong. lol
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10-16-2011, 08:17 PM | #38 | |
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Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?
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I'd probably do the same if I was at a McDonald's in Texas. js
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10-16-2011, 08:42 PM | #39 |
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Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?
I think that this act was too aggressive, regardless of gender. I do feel like if the cashier used something else, less lethal I would think it would be all right.
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10-16-2011, 09:05 PM | #40 |
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Re: Is this Just Self-Defence?
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