God.

[fido123]

Originally Posted by Lvytn

Time has been in existence since man gave it existence. Nothing else keeps time but man. God was also created by man. Lol. If we are the birds, and god the bird keeper...where is the cat?

Thats a metaphor and Time is not an invention of man at all. If there as no time before man how was the sun and the earth created? There is definate proof that there was time before man as we know how the earth and sun were created...before man obiously. Also the chances that we were made by luck is astronomical. Our body and mind is somthing not even us can comprehend or recreate so how did this happen by chance? Its hardly possible. We don't understand the universe and probably never will but personally I think there is some form of higher power that guides the universe.

[devonin]

There is definate proof that there was time before man as we know how the earth and sun were created

Saying that time existed before man as a means of refutation is like saying that man didn't invent the metric system because there were distances before man.

Things existed, call them what you like, and we -invented- names, terms, and definitions for those terms to identify what they were. "The passage of instants from one to the next" being "time" is a human definition, it did not pre-exist humans. The phenomenon that we -call- time presumably preexisted us (Though we can't especially prove that with 100% certainty) but that isn't really the same thing.

You are allowed to think that a higher power guides the universe all you like, but you need to provide -actual- evidence to say such a thing in CT and have it be taken seriously.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

"So actually you don't believe in any of them, you instead accept the possibility that absolutely every option is equally likely to be true, including ones, it seems, that you haven't even thought of yet. Refusing to pick isn't the same thing as choosing all of them"
Yeah... I used to think that I would just pray to every possibility, but then I also valued that they could also be equally wrong which is why I don't really try to pray as much anymore. Plus these religions are so self absorbed and I don't feel like praying to one religion that has sins against others. I would say that I am somewhere inbetween refusing to pick and choosing all of them.

[fido123]

Originally Posted by devonin

Saying that time existed before man as a means of refutation is like saying that man didn't invent the metric system because there were distances before man.

Things existed, call them what you like, and we -invented- names, terms, and definitions for those terms to identify what they were. "The passage of instants from one to the next" being "time" is a human definition, it did not pre-exist humans. The phenomenon that we -call- time presumably preexisted us (Though we can't especially prove that with 100% certainty) but that isn't really the same thing.
You are allowed to think that a higher power guides the universe all you like, but you need to provide -actual- evidence to say such a thing in CT and have it be taken seriously.

Thats what I ment. Also I'm just saying theres no proof of God but it's highly likley.

I also agree with you MotF

[devonin]

Also I'm just saying theres no proof of God but it's highly likley.

You haven't even demonstrated any evidence for its liklihood, to say nothing for proof. I mean...there are dozens of perfectly typical pieces of logic to imply the necessity of a creator that you could be copy/pasting from wikipedia to at least have -something- for us to directly address other than "I think there could be, and I bet there's a good chance"

[Master_of_the_Faster]

"Religion is a man-made construct, a shell inside of which they formulate their world-view. Humans are the -only- people to listen to about religion, because nothing else has invented it."
I understand that this is a good point and that humans made these religions themselves (NOT A GOD[unless it is proven that a god made the humans that made religion]), but I mean why is this a response to what I said earlier? are you against what I say or value it at all? Or were you just providing more information?

[devonin]

When you say "I'm never going to listen to a -human- about religion ever again" you very strongly imply of not explicitly state that you -would- consider listening to something -else- about religion, and I was pointing out that there are -no- other authorities on religion you can access, religion being a human-made and human-followed construction.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Also, when hayatewillown's cousin said "we are all little birds in a big cage and the cage represents our mind," doesn't this imply that god is some type of tyrant. I mean we go to churches and temples and do Everything that they say. There is a reason why church and state seperated and that was the assumption that god is some type of tyrant. We couldn't have our government support a tyrant even if it is a god. The worst part is I feel as though religion makes a god looks so authoritarian and undemocratic. Doesn't god get a say in all of this if he/she truely exists?

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Oh i see, thanks for pointing that out devonin.

[Relambrien]

Originally Posted by Master_of_the_Faster

Also, when hayatewillown's cousin said "we are all little birds in a big cage and the cage represents our mind," doesn't this imply that god is some type of tyrant. I mean we go to churches and temples and do Everything that they say. There is a reason why church and state seperated and that was the assumption that god is some type of tyrant. We couldn't have our government support a tyrant even if it is a god. The worst part is I feel as though religion makes a god looks so authoritarian and undemocratic. Doesn't god get a say in all of this if he/she truely exists?

The reason the United States wanted to limit the connection between government and religion was because the people wanted religious freedom. If a state-supported religion was established, it could very well lead to legal discrimination against people not of that religion. This is what the Founding Fathers wanted to prevent, so they made sure a state-supported religion would never be established. Not because they assumed God was a tyrant, but because they wanted to make sure people could practice whatever religion they wanted.

Edit: This is called the Edit button. You can find it at the bottom-right corner of your posts. Please use it; do not double post. Especially not in one of the most strictly-moderated forums on the site.

[devonin]

Doesn't god get a say in all of this if he/she truely exists?

Whether God does not exist or God does exist and simply deigns not to reveal itself, the outcome for humanity is largely the same.

As I see it, there are only a few possibilities here:

1/ God does not exist, everything we think we know about God is a construction
2/ God does exist, everything we think we know about God is completely correct, which is why we have never been corrected.
3/ God does exist, and simply doesn't care one whit what we do or do not think we know about it.

I know which of those three -I- find the most appealing and compelling.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Yeah, you're right about that. I shouldn't have posted that connection about god hypothetically being a tyrant and the government. Even today, so many religions are practiced by politicians that I feel are so oppressive. I still want to make it clear that god shouldn't be viewed as a tyrant who wants us to serve him 24/7. Even if god is a tyrant, I don't value such a time consuming activity that takes away from people and won't stand for it on my own watch.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

So you say that devonin, but what exactly is the one that you find "most appealing and compelling" and why?

[devonin]

Well, if nothing else, I prefer to hope that '2' is not the case. If God exists, and approves of everything being done in God's name, then God is evil and we should be actively opposing it at every turn.

Number '3' The necessary belief of religious people that God does not interfere in the goings on of reality (ie. they can justify following God despite the evil in the world, by blaming the evil on themselves and not God) but -STILL CARES about humanity- runs into a few blocks, because these people often also believe in the power of Prayer to influence God to intervene, and that Miracles are performed that actually just change the very course of events. In such cases, God is -clearly- interfering in the world, and thus -does- interfere in the world and we go right back to point 2: If God -does- interfere in the world, then God is allowing all of the evils to continue.

Further, in any state in which God interferes with the world, we have no free will as a result, and I'm not especially keen on concluding determinism even though I can argue for it pretty strongly if I want to.

About the only two conclusions I can possibly draw about God that both match the course of human existance -and- make any kind of logical sense to me (Other than "God is real, and a total asshole") are:

1/ god simply does not exist in any meaningful sense. (Ie. Even -if- some "force" created the universe, it is not a sentient thinking force, and thus irellevant to human understanding of the world)
2/ God exists in a meaningful sense, but has absolutely no vested interest whatsoever in humanity, Earth, or even this entire universe. (Ie. Even -if- God created this universe, it wasn't so we would exist, and could have been just for the hell of it, and either way may not even be -aware- of our existance and definately does not care for the course of humanity)

The process of 1/ is similar to (but not the same as) agnosticism, while 2/ is pretty much textbook Deism, and are of all the beliefs I've studied, among the more compelling and logical given what evidence we have and can understand.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

To be honest, I would really hope that a god exists because if one does, so very many questions can be answered. If a god doesn't exist then humanity might never really know anything about a god. The very thought that there will never be proof sickens me because I like a hypothesis to lead to a conclusion and help humanity (as described by that lovely table). Oh and I meant to go along with the possibility that this god does not favor the oppressive ideas of humans.

[Reach]

One god has to exist because there is Space, Time, and Matter? .

Why would it require a God?

God would also need a creator if all things need to be created. If God does not need a creator then not all things need creators, and I could easily appoint any number of things that are not gods to be eternal and the reason for our existance.

This isn't really a black and white issue.

. It took our world so long to find many things like atoms and maybe finding a god is somewhere in our scope as well.

Apparently not since we already have thousands of religions and Gods >_>

As I see it, there are only a few possibilities here:

1/ God does not exist, everything we think we know about God is a construction
2/ God does exist, everything we think we know about God is completely correct, which is why we have never been corrected.
3/ God does exist, and simply doesn't care one whit what we do or do not think we know about it.

4/ There are many Gods

There is also an inherent problem with the word 'God'. You use the word God as if being singular and having one universal definition. You need to define God though, because it can be used in so many ways even an atheist like me could twist the word enough to say there is a God.

[ledwix]

So God has to be a thing? Maybe "things" refers to tangible entities we can perceive in this universe.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

The funny part about my beliefs in all possibilities (one god, many, none, or others unknown) is that I don't have any basic definition of a god. If we used god as some being that made people then couldn't we all just refer to our parents as gods? The definition of a god has basically no meaning to us which is why I don't like religion (except my own ideas). Some say that god is an emotion or some part of physical or mental beings while others think of it as an authoritarian king. I would only hope that a god is a being that can govern human beings out of being intolerant.

[Reach]

Originally Posted by ledwix

So God has to be a thing? Maybe "things" refers to tangible entities we can perceive in this universe.

Sure, God is a thing. Everything that exists is a thing as far as i'm using the word (hence the word everything, lol ;D). If it exists it's a thing, and if something can exist without a creator I don't see how that rule is somehow bound to only Gods.

And yes MOTF, many people use the word God differently, which is why often people argue even though their sides are very similar. I suppose what most of us here are talking about when we say 'God' is an omniscient creator of all things.

[Sir_Thomas]

Originally Posted by hayatewillown

Time has been around since the birth of our universe and is the most important factor of our lives and existence. God created the universe and since the universe requires time as a factor it clearly means that God created Time when he created our universe.

This is probably the best example of stupidity I have seen.
When trying to prove your point, you cant use the point you are trying to prove as a fact in the arguement.

He is trying to prove God exists, yet he used God as a variable in his argument.
He basically said "Listen, God exists because Time has been around since the universe was created, since God created our universe, God exists."

Its as stupid as saying...
"People were created by God, so if we exist, that means God must exist."