Super Smash Brothers Brawl

[ducky285]

Originally Posted by Afrobean

stuff about tier lists

First off, the list is based on 1 v 1 competitive play.

Every fighting game has tier list since no game is ever completely balanced. The Street Fighters have one. Guilty Gear has one. Melee has one. It's an inevitability because some characters will just be better at 1 v 1 competitive play than others. As for the five levels thing, I think it's to make the list easier to read and comprehend and it's more aesthetic than anything. Remove the levels and you get a simple ranking list.

That is not to say that bottom tier characters have no shot at winning a tournament. a testament to a game's balance is shown in the relative gap between top tier and bottom tier. Guilty Gear shows Johnny as bottom tier but he is still capable of beasting through a tournament. It just requires a LOT more work and a LOT more mindgaming.

The list based on a few things...

1. Potential
2. Actual success at the tournament level
3. Number of favorable and unfavorable match-ups

Fox and Falco were top tier in Melee because they won a vast majority of tournaments and matched up extremely well against most of the cast. They also had a great level of potential due to a combination of speed, range, power and useful projectiles.


Now I'm not DEFENDING this list at all, but I understand how it came to be based on the current metagame. Like I said, the list I posted is NOT final, official or even 100% correct. The game has been out for a little more than two months (counting the JP release) so building a tier list at this point is a bit much. Melee didn't develop a true list until a few years after it came out and it changed a few times based on changes in the way the metagame developed as players got better and new techniques were discovered. Roy used to be on top until people realized that he was too slow and had no combo potential, thus he was dropped way down the list. Shiek was on top for the longest time until Fox and Falco users started dominating tournies.

Give it about a year and the list should be more accurate. Right now the list is based on mostly theory and the current skill level of competitive players. Keep in mind, also, that the list was compiled by someone in a greater fighting game community as opposed to the dedicated Smash community. I would trust an SWF list over one off SRK, personally.

Also, did ANYONE read the thread I posted where they explain why each character is where they are. It makes sense to me. >_>

Since people are asking, I'll explain to the best of my knowledge why certain characters are where they are....

Snake is top because he can camp all day and his close-range moves have insane power and priority. His f-tilt, b-air, u-air, d-tilt, u-tilt and n-air are all quick and do serious damage. His arms are legs are disjointed hitboxes for some unknown reason, adding to his priority.

Pit, Falco, Toon Link, ROB and Zelda are also amazingly good at camping as well. Notice that all these characters are near the top. This is because Brawl tournies lately are being won by whoever can camp the best.

Pit, in particular, can arrow spam then use his high priority close range attacks to punish anyone who tries to approach. He also has insane recovery and TWO reflectors.

Wario is lower because he lacks range and gets murdered by sword users. Too many bad matchups.

Olimar is up top because of his range, priority and ability to cause a LOT of damage in a short amount of time. The only thing keeping him from being WAY up is his recovery.

Meta Knight has issues with KOing but he still has some decent moves. D-smash works. F-smash works. Shuttle Loop works. He still has to get the enemy to high percentages but he can build damage really quickly. He can also get past campers because he's REALLY good at approaching with just about any move you can think of. his recovery is also amazing and he can use any of his B-moves for that purpose. Plus he can glide twice in midair.

Toon Link is considered better than Link because he's faster and has quicker projectiles. His arrows act a bit like Falco's laser. Link is sluggish and his arrows aren't as useful. Toon Link also has a SICK air game with b-air and f-air.

Zelda can camp easily and can KO reliably with a LOT of moves.

Luigi is like Mario except with a lot of KO moves, amazing recovery and a great approach move.

Diddy is quick and can do a lot of stuff with them nanners of his.

ZSS is quick and has amazing range on normal moves and her Plasma Whip.

Dedede has crazy grab range, a chaingrab, balanced offense (quick weak moves with range coupled with slower power moves), a useful and potentially devastating projectile and insane recovery. His only issues are being big and slow.

And that's the most I've said about Brawl ever. Anyone else need some clarification?

[DarkManticoreX2]

I still think putting Samus near the bottom is a mistake, She's got a massive range arsenal (even if it did get slower and weaker), and some pretty powerful smash attacks.

She was downgraded a lot since melee, (basically everything got weaker/shorter/less powerful), but her fire attacks got beefed up and she can still deal damage and send opponents flying. Not to mention she simply doesn't die. Been up to 250% a ton of times in 1v1 matches.

[MrGiggles]

They're mostly based on tourny results (I think that's what matters most, someone correct me if I'm wrong), so saying that it''s 'wrong' or 'a mistake' doesn't really mean anything.

[ducky285]

Samus gets easily out-projectiled by a LOT of characters. Her projectiles are weaker. She has trouble KOing until higher damages. She also has limited mobility and her Bombs don't explode on contact (which helped escape pressure).

Her Z-air (air grapple beam) is really good, though. Good range and no lag on landing. She can still space with her projectiles, but they're much less effective than, say, Pit's arrows, Snake's granades, ROB's laser/gyros etc.

Everything she can do, other characters can do better, which is why she is so low on the list.

This doesn't mean she sucks completely and I hope people are getting that. People get so offended when their character ends up low tier. I mean, I use Yoshi a lot and he's almost bottom tier on that list. And I agree with the rationale so I don't mind. I think I can be effective with him if I put in enough time. It'll just be a lot harder to win with him.

[Shoe The Almighty]

Originally Posted by Afrobean

Holy ****.

My point was that the content of your post was almost wholly retarded, and that fact wasn't helped by the format of it which was entirely retarded.

In other words, Pit is DEFINITELY a good character, Wolf is good too, but Meta Knight lacks one of the most important things for a character to have: the ability to easily deal death blows.

ps good game ****ing up the format on your quote.

Again, why are you stressing out over my sentence? Just move on.

I don't see Pit a good character for two reasons:
1) I haven't played person GOOD with Pit, both online and off
2) He seems like a weaker and taller version of MetaKnight

Until I actually play a good person that uses Pit, that's my opinion, but hey, he's a hell of a lot better than Olimar.

The tier list was off 1 V 1? It should be based on both multiplayer AND 1 V 1. It might make the list more balanced....but then again some people are better on one vs. one than on multiplayer.

[MrGiggles]

Originally Posted by Shoe The Almighty

I don't see Pit a good character for two reasons:
1) I haven't played person GOOD with Pit, both online and off
2) He seems like a weaker and taller version of MetaKnight

Those are two terrible reasons rofl. He's got much more KO power (he can begin KO'ing about half of the characters at 100% with bair) and recovery than Metaknight. He can't combo as well, but his arrows are absolutely gay to make up for it. San Fransisco gay. Some of his aerials are almost as good as MK's, and his down-b is the most fun edgeguarding move in the game. Not that has anything to do with tiers, but I wanted to get that out there.

I watched some dude on youtube get knocked off, recover while looping arrows around himself, and then when his opponent went after him, he sent the looping arrows after him while he (Pit) safely returned to the stage, jumped back out, and fair'd his opponent to death. I thought it was just about the coolest arrow trick I'd ever seen.

To be honest, I kinda regret seeing him up there, since every time I play with him while he's up there I'm going to get screamed at for being gay when I've wanted to main Pit since months before Brawl's release. :*(

[zidart]

in my opinion EVERY character could be a good one, you just gotta know how to use them, even the lowest tier character can be deadly in the hands of a pro... saying that a character sucks is something that i think is more like saying "i'm not good with this character"

[Shoe The Almighty]

Originally Posted by zidart

in my opinion EVERY character could be a good one, you just gotta know how to use them, even the lowest tier character can be deadly in the hands of a pro... saying that a character sucks is something that i think is more like saying "i'm not good with this character"

Yeah your right

As I said about Pit, I haven't played against anyone good with Pit sooooo I still think he is a bad character.

[Squeek]

Going through All-Star with everyone is boring as hell. I barely get halfway through one run before I wish it would end sooner.

After my one run today I messed around in Home Run Contest some more. I got two characters over 2,000 feet: Lucas and Olimar. My goal is to get 2,000+ with everyone. Problem is there are characters who absolutely suck at HRC like Meta Knight. It's a challenge.

[banditcom]

I didn't bother too much with HRC. I got 60k total feet.

Oh and when I got the game, I used a random hammer for a trophy (I was just clicking). Then yesterday I was trying to find what I used it on: Complete All-Star mode with every character.

xD Sweet! It was put to good use... haha

[x After Dawn x]

Originally Posted by Afrobean

Maybe throw in a category for relative neutrals like Mario or Kirby. Certainly no more levels than that... certainly not 5 ****ing levels of bull****.

I agree...Brawl is so much more balanced than Melee that it only needs about 3-4 tiers. Really, if you get beaten by someone else, it's not because the character that your opponent chose was that much better than the character you chose, but actually that your opponent was better than you or he/ she utilized his/ her character more efficiently and better than you.

Oh, and when I say "you", I'm not talking about you specifically, I'm just talking about gamers in general.

Originally Posted by Shoe The Almighty

Again, why are you stressing out over my sentence? Just move on.

I don't see Pit a good character for two reasons:
1) I haven't played person GOOD with Pit, both online and off
2) He seems like a weaker and taller version of MetaKnight

Until I actually play a good person that uses Pit, that's my opinion, but hey, he's a hell of a lot better than Olimar.

The tier list was off 1 V 1? It should be based on both multiplayer AND 1 V 1. It might make the list more balanced....but then again some people are better on one vs. one than on multiplayer.

You really don't have any idea what you're talking about, do you? Smash Bros. isn't about racking up damage and then throwing your opponent like it was in the original. Smash Bros. is about trying to get your opponent off the edge, and then guarding that edge so that they can't get back down. Meta Knight can sit there and chop his sword through the air as much as it wants, but no matter how much you do it, it's not getting your opponent off the edge. What Meta Knight lacks is what Pit has.

As for your opinion that tier lists should be based on multiplayer and 1-vs.-1, it doesn't matter. Either way, Pit has insane recovery and smash attacks that make him a better character in multiplayer battles if you know how to use him right, and tier lists are based on that assumption.

[Squeek]

Originally Posted by banditcom

I didn't bother too much with HRC. I got 60k total feet.

Oh and when I got the game, I used a random hammer for a trophy (I was just clicking). Then yesterday I was trying to find what I used it on: Complete All-Star mode with every character.

xD Sweet! It was put to good use... haha

You're still going to have to get the All-Star with 10 and Final Smash trophies challenges. And all the difficulty settings too. It's not that much different if you decide to do the co-op All-Star mode since you'll have to do it 37/2=19 times plus ten times on singles mode = 29 times. You save 6 runs. And you have to do it with a friend. I've tried to do it with just a Wii Remote as player 2 while I defended him with my Gamecube-controlled character as player 1. It doesn't work too well. Expect to continue a lot.

ps - It's 37 because there are 37 Final Smash trophies. Sheik and ZSS have different trophies from their counterparts. Fortunately the Pokemon team doesn't have this issue like they do in Classic.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by Squeek

You're still going to have to get the All-Star with 10 and Final Smash trophies challenges. And all the difficulty settings too. It's not that much different if you decide to do the co-op All-Star mode since you'll have to do it 37/2=19 times plus ten times on singles mode = 29 times. You save 6 runs. And you have to do it with a friend. I've tried to do it with just a Wii Remote as player 2 while I defended him with my Gamecube-controlled character as player 1. It doesn't work too well. Expect to continue a lot.

ps - It's 37 because there are 37 Final Smash trophies. Sheik and ZSS have different trophies from their counterparts. Fortunately the Pokemon team doesn't have this issue like they do in Classic.

I had never considered co-op Allstar...

Did you try Easy mode? I grinded through Easy mode when I cleared Allstar with all characters, and I was KOing all enemies basically instantly. Also: it doesn't matter if you use continues for those objectives, and continues on easy mode are like 2 coins.

[sjoecool1991]

One thing that is really annoying.
Is that you have to finish All Star mode with Sheik and Zero Suit Samus to get all the final smash trophies.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by sjoecool1991

One thing that is really annoying.
Is that you have to finish All Star mode with Sheik and Zero Suit Samus to get all the final smash trophies.

whats worse is trying to beat it as zelda only to accidentally transform to sheik without thinking about it just as you kill the last thing you need to kill

I did that against Master Hand in Classic.

[Flaming_Dingleberry]

Originally Posted by Afrobean

Holy ****.

My point was that the content of your post was almost wholly retarded, and that fact wasn't helped by the format of it which was entirely retarded.

>>>In other words, Pit is DEFINITELY a good character, Wolf is good too, but Meta Knight lacks one of the most important things for a character to have: the ability to easily deal death blows.<<<

ps good game ****ing up the format on your quote.

He doesn't work well with grammar and formats, not such a big deal. Although I know it's funny to point out that stuff, especially with Shoe, what happened to the effort? You're better than this at insulting people. Most of this was, "You're a retard" and the helpful parts (>>> here <<<) I don't agree with; Pit doesn't work for me and I can't see why he is DEFINITELY a good character. Wolf seems nice, but that doesn't matter because...

Originally Posted by zidart

in my opinion EVERY character could be a good one, you just gotta know how to use them, even the lowest tier character can be deadly in the hands of a pro... saying that a character sucks is something that i think is more like saying "i'm not good with this character"

Saving me from repeating and fully agreeing with this guy, he's got it by George he does, he's a genius. Although he didn't capitalize the "I" in the beginning of his sentence DEAR GOD HE MUST BE RETARDED!! Right Afrobean?

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by Flaming_Dingleberry

He doesn't work well with grammar and formats, not such a big deal. Although I know it's funny to point out that stuff, especially with Shoe, what happened to the effort? You're better than this at insulting people. Most of this was, "You're a retard" and the helpful parts (>>> here <<<) I don't agree with; Pit doesn't work for me and I can't see why he is DEFINITELY a good character. Wolf seems nice, but that doesn't matter because...

If you think Pit isn't one of the best potential characters, you know nothing of this game, and by extension, continued argument of this serves only to make yourself look stupid.

Saving me from repeating and fully agreeing with this guy, he's got it by George he does, he's a genius. Although he didn't capitalize the "I" in the beginning of his sentence DEAR GOD HE MUST BE RETARDED!! Right Afrobean?

People are only worthy of being called retarded if the idea they present is monumentally stupid. The theme of his post is pretty close to spot on, so his lack of absolutely correct language usage is easily overlooked.

[Rayku]

Metaknight does have a kill move other than his up+B, his downsmash.

Killing in the air is more of a problem, however, which is usually how I kill my opponents.

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by ducky285

Olimar is far from the worst character in the game, guys. He has insane range, damage-building ability and power. Unfortunately, he has one of the worst recoveries in the game that's EASILY edgehogged. Ivysaur is pretty much the same character only not as good.

I was reading on the Shoryuken forums (since Brawl will be at EVO Championship Series this year) and they have a very early unofficial tier list up.

Original thread here with reasonings and some match-up info in the first two posts.
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152409

Top:
Snake
Pit
Toon Link
Falco
Metaknight
Marth
Wolf

High:
Zelda
R.O.B.
King Dedede
Ice Climbers
Game & Watch
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Diddy Kong
Pikman & Olimar
Fox
Pikachu

Mid:
Luigi
Kirby
Sheik
Peach
Squirtle
Wario
Lucario
Ness
Ike
Jigglypuff
Charizard

Low:
Link
Donkey Kong
Samus
Bowser
Yoshi

Bottom:
Ivysaur
Sonic
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
Mario

Keep in mind that it's too early in the game's lifespan to come up with a definite tier list. Also, this is for competitive play only. If you don't care about competitive play, this list doesn't really mean anything so I would just ignore it. Most characters are viable in 4P FFAs, though some characters are usually better than others in those types of matches.

Anyone wanna weigh in on this?

wrong

BTW the worst characters are Link and Sonic. I would say Link is worse than Sonic, but ya THOSE are the worst characters(so far). At this level in the game it probably wouldn't be smart arguing that with me because I play with about 20 different people 5+ hours a day. I just laugh reading what a lot of you say about this game.

[Afrobean]

Sonic isn't truly that bad.

He's like a mirror opposite of ganondorf.

Except that it's easier to overcome lack of strength with speed, than it is to overcome slowness with power.

And Link is only bad in the sense that he could be better. He's still rather well balanced and not a bad character overall, even if there are more effective choices.

That's kind of what we're getting at when we say tier lists are stupid. Even the worst tiers aren't even truly bad characters, they just have weaknesses which are generally more difficult to overcome than other character's.