Super Smash Brothers Brawl

[banditcom]

Look...... Think of it like MMA. There are certain rules put into place by people to throw out cheap factors. No small joint manipulation, no groin shots, etc. It's the same thing with SSBB.

They put their focus in a main area(s)/aspect(s). The best people who have played 100x more than all of us and learned every part of the game and its physics have decided this. They are better than all of us, even if they don't practice with items. Who cares? They are trying to master a game. Let them. They don't want to play with items because then there is a chance they could lose, just as if a fighter from MMA could possibly lose to some bum at a bar cause of some cheap thing like a groin shot or an eye gouge.

It's a ****ing game. Let people choose how they want to play. Not all sports or games are the same and there are different rules that people come up with or variations. For everything. It's life. We like different things and have different opinions.


Honestly, getting read of "cheapness" is the best way to determine base skill. ANYONE can win a cheap way. But what's the point when you're trying to determine (tournaments) who is the best? Rather fruitless...

[Telvanni_guard]

Originally Posted by korny

1 on 1, a noob will never beat a pro.

Here is where I can beat your argument.


Change the normal rules of lets say first to 10 in Halo to First to 1. There will be a time when the Noob player beats the Pro. Especially without a radar.

Same with CoD4.

And one stock your game on Brawl and I bet at least once you might get beat. Be it a stage death, or you just having an off-stock.

[zidart]

besides once i beated a guy way out of my leage because he triped right in front of me... i just used side smash with mario and he flew away, there's even randomness in non-item battles.

however thank goodness i live in florida, there was a 4VS4 with item tournament over here, at least the MGL rules have not yet reached all the states of this country

[MalReynolds]

That's the thing, Jason. They're not mastering the game. They're mastering an aspect of the game, and calling all other aspects unfair. If groin grabs and joint manipulation were written into the charter and then removed for being unfair, it'd be the same thing, and there would be the same arguement. Items were programmed into the game to be used. Their default setting is "On". It's not like they're super secret and have to be activated by a code. They're part of the game when the game is being played fresh out of the box, at the most basic.

If anything, without items should be illegitamte, because you have to fiddle with the options to the nth degree just to play the game you want. It's infantile to set a bunch of rules stating that you have to HAVE TO play a certain way just so the other party can win. Especially when that win for some arbitrary reason determines skill, when you're ignoring a large part of the game.

[korny]

Originally Posted by Telvanni_guard

Here is where I can beat your argument.


Change the normal rules of lets say first to 10 in Halo to First to 1. There will be a time when the Noob player beats the Pro. Especially without a radar.

Same with CoD4.

And one stock your game on Brawl and I bet at least once you might get beat. Be it a stage death, or you just having an off-stock.

Ok sure if you put it that way then yeah it becomes a lot more possible. But that's kind of taking what i'm saying out of context, because i always play with at least 3 lives. If a noob plays by tourney regulated rules, he is never going to beat a pro.

And zidart, if the person you played was a pro like you say and had no items on and lost because of one incident of tripping, then he's not a pro rofl.

[iRockZelda]

just settle it at this,

in any given situation, a non-experienced person vs. a very well experienced person. Who has the higher chance of winning? Im sure the experienced person does, items just add to that. Given that items can also make the non-experienced person win. Thats why having no items just shows the persons skill/experience for the game. I dont think anyone here said that items are cheap and should never be used. Its all personal opinion on why it should be used or not.

I like both on and off, but items off allows the person to show their true skills.

[zidart]

Originally Posted by korny

Ok sure if you put it that way then yeah it becomes a lot more possible. But that's kind of taking what i'm saying out of context, because i always play with at least 3 lives. If a noob plays by tourney regulated rules, he is never going to beat a pro.

And zidart, if the person you played was a pro like you say and had no items on and lost because of one incident of tripping, then he's not a pro rofl.

sure like is impossible to trip in front of someone.. and then hit them with a mario side smash....

[korny]

Haha if he was a pro like you say, he wouldn't have lost because of one incident as tripping. He might've seemed pro to you, but that doesn't mean he was one.

[zidart]

Originally Posted by korny

Haha if he was a pro like you say, he wouldn't have lost because of one incident as tripping. He might've seemed pro to you, but that doesn't mean he was one.

sure someone that got the 1st place in the gamestop tournament in my regional area is not a pro... and besides why is it so hard that someone tries to dash attack you, trip and then i hit it with a side smash?

[korny]

Why are you so dense? What you're saying is extremely likely. I never doubted for a second that it happened. But he shouldn't have lost because of just one mishap. Besides, the person who one the gamestop tournament in my home town, got 4 stocked by me twice in a row. Those gamestop tournaments don't mean jack sh1t. You have to use the wiimote for those tournaments. Just don't talk anymore until you play me tonight, so you'll know what i'm talking about. It's getting really annoying.

[Squeek]

And if the victory is really "cheap", there are two simple ways to fix that. Do what professional sports do.

1) Make it best out of 3/5/7.

2) Utilize a judge.

Do professional sports work without an umpire or referee or official? Hell no. People break rules all the time. Just bring on an unbiased "cheap" checker. Problem solved. Use items that aren't retarded, of course. Those are designed for "fun" play, not "4srs" play.

And hey, I just now thought of this. If you're doing a smash attack into a capsule, wouldn't you both explode? I mean, why would you attack air? That evens it out, does it not?

Edit: Wow, you JUST SAID WHAT I SAID. "You shouldn't lose just because of one mistake." If you're really good, an explosion wouldn't kill you because you wouldn't be that damaged in the first place, right? I swear I said that exact same thing earlier.

[korny]

Except you're talking about items not tripping. To lose by items is WAY more probably than by tripping.

Have a cheapness checker? No thanks. I'll just play without items so there won't be a need for that.

[zidart]

Originally Posted by korny

Except you're talking about items not tripping. To lose by items is WAY more probably than by tripping.

Have a cheapness checker? No thanks. I'll just play without items so there won't be a need for that.

yes but your saying that a pro can beat a noob 100% of the time, and tripping wich can happen completely randomly might affect this percentage

[korny]

Not if that pro is me it won't.

[Squeek]

You don't hide your arrogance at all, do you.

Show me a professional athlete who would insult his competition and I'll show you a rulebook that will get him sidelined for weeks.

[dogdude84]

K this argument...seriously?

korny doesn't like items.

other people do.

period.

stop.

[korny]

Originally Posted by Squeek

You don't hide your arrogance at all, do you.

Boohoo

[Shamo0]

Items are for noobs. Simple.

[Silvuh]

Telvanni_guard's example defeats the argument of "A professional player will never lose to a new or much less experienced player." (In other words, "1 on 1, a noob will never beat a pro".) It is out of context only when the argument is made more specific.

Originally Posted by korny

But that's kind of taking what i'm saying out of context, because i always play with at least 3 lives. If a noob plays by tourney regulated rules, he is never going to beat a pro.

These are the specifications. But, you added them after Telvanni refuted the argument he replied to. You took yourself out of context.

Okay. Now here's a question related to the specifications in the quoted post.
What if a professional player was playing with one of his or her friends who was new to the game and said pro let the other win? They could still be playing under tourney regulated rules, and the less experienced player would have beat the professional ("beat" as in "won against", not as in "been better than"). Any case of that hypothetical situation happening refutes the argument you have given.
I'm asking you to be more specific, in case you can't tell.

A few other things about a different part of the debate: I like the idea of a truly skilled player having to be skilled in many aspects of the game. A truly skilled Brawl player should be able to use terrain and any items turned on to their advantage. Someone skilled on Final Destination might not be as skilled on Hanenbow.
When items and diverse maps are introduced, what reason is there for randomness being biased towards the less experienced? You say a new player could beat a professional when items are turned on, but shouldn't a professional be able to take advantage of the randomness, too?

[/debate mode]
[fun mode]

I can't say much about the game itself, unfortunately... I don't get to play it often, because I don't own a Wii. My main in Brawl would have to be Falco, but I play as other characters a lot, too. Ice Climbers, Lucario, Squirtle, Yoshi, Wolf, Diddy Kong... I'm not good, because I don't have much practice. I was able to get the Level 2, 3, and 5 Target Smash time-test trophies with Falco on a friend's game, and that made me happy. Nyeh... Can't think of much else to say at the moment.

Ninja edit:

Originally Posted by Shamo0

Items are for noobs. Simple.

Try to justify your argument next time you post, please.

[Relambrien]

Okay seriously, korny you are really making the "tourney***" crowd look bad. You're fitting perfectly into the stereotype of "NO ITEMS FOX ONLY FINAL DESTINATION I'M SO MUCH BETTER THAN YOU AND I FLAUNT IT EVERY CHANCE I GET" that's so commonly believed.

Similarly, Shamo0's argument gives off the same vibe. I may agree that items are probably bad for tournament play (we'll have to see just to what extent things can be tinkered with in regards to randomness factors, and whether any remaining randomness hurts more than the tinkering helps), but if you're going to make a claim like that, at least back it up.

I think part of the reason there's so much bad blood between the two main Smash philosophies is because of things like this. Honestly, a non-heated discussion could solve so many more problems than the flame war this could soon become.

Or everyone could realize, based on the history of this thread, that the same people are saying the same thing, and that no one has really changed their opinion in 146 pages, that attempting to convince others of your own correctness is impossible. Though if you feel you can do this, go right ahead. I'm not going to stop you--but seriously, at least stay calm and show the respect others deserve.

Squeek and others have argued more than enough in this thread to warrant something more than a "Boohoo" and "Items are for noobs."