Super Smash Brothers Brawl

[Squeek]

Well I'll be.

Still, it's not so fast that you can't see it. And it's not like it'll happen right on you EVERY TIME.

And I still haven't seen a Brawl video featuring an exploding crate / barrel / capsule.

[tsugomaru]

I believe Legendary Frog has a relevant comic about this.

"Okay, but no items."
"But I love items."
"Items unbalance the game. Say you're winning and a beam sword falls near you. It could possibly chop your head off maybe."
"Fine. No items. I'm going to play as Mewtwo!"
"Mewtwo? HE'S BOTTOM TIER. We'll play as 'Generic Gray Cube' so it will be even."
"Well, can we play on Princess Peach Castle? I like that one!"
"No, we can't play on Princess Peach's Castle! The stage has a platform on it that if a certain character lands on it, he could JUMP FURTHER THAN SOMEONE ELSE! Thus ruining balance. Here, we'll play 'Generic Platform Floating in a Sea of Obilivion' Stage!"

"You know... I don't think this is as fun as it used to be."
"DUH! That's when you know you're hardcore."

~Tsugomaru

[bmah]

Hahaha xD

So true. But I know some people like l2awr will disagree.

[Gano]

Tsugo, Legendary Frog is still around? Where at?
[edit] Holy **** website there he is, awesome

[zidart]

i think items are fun, and it rises the oportunity to do combos. besides is stupid when someone says "let's not play with items because noobs can win with them"

at the first one, well it's true that items sometimes give a unfair advantage, but not all the time if you know what you're doing, besides if it gives new people the advantage wouldn't that be something good? like raise the challenge.

and relambrien, smash is suposed to be a chaotic fighting game, that's why so many items and weird stages are on it.

[Afrobean]

Yeah, I don't think calling what is referred to as competitive play to measure who has the most overall skill. What about the skill of using the map's "geography" to it's full advantage? What about the skill of using items properly? What about the skill of chucking an item clear across the stage and nailing your opponent right in the face? What about the skill of being well-rounded and being able to play well on ANY character?

All competitive play measures is who is the best at abusing glitches, in addition to close combat on uninteresting levels, and all the while, takes out the entire element of item throwing as an effective way of applying damage or controlling your opponent. Seriously, I wouldn't consider someone to have more skill than me just because they could beat me in that way; I'd require them to play a couple of DEFAULT SETTING matches on a FEW RANDOM maps without abusing any programming oversights before I'd admit real defeat. And believe me: I'm not that great at Melee and would probably get my butt stomped regardless, but the point I'm trying to make here is that I wouldn't even consider losing on Final Destination with items off to be a legitimate measure of my skill because I'll be the first to admit: close combat is one department in which I am not the most skilled.

If you have gripes about dying from a crate or something stupid like that, first of all: you're dumb. Second of all, be careful. Third of all, play your competitive matches to a length in which a single suicide that you did yourself wouldn't affect the competition in a strong way. I don't know how long you guys play for, but if I was playing a match and SOMEHOW ended up hitting it ON ACCIDENT, I can tell you right now that that one single thing happening would not make the difference between winning or losing the match.

Seriously though, I don't see how you guys could do that, I never do, unless my opponent is initiating me right next to a crate or something; but if everyone is bitchy about crates exploding, none of your "competitive" brethren would initiate you next to a crate unless they wanted to blow up too.

And don't even try to act like luck isn't ALWAYS a part of it. You have no real control over your opponent's defensive status (aside from mind games, but I won't even touch that), so you need luck to strike in your favor while trying to get through their defenses. Now, I'm not saying this luck is the same thing as having the luck of where a bobomb spawns, but it is still luck. And I don't think anyone is really asking for things that explode... those are stupid. People like me want things to throw. Someone said something like "dur Mr Saturn why even bother"; the reason to bother is that the one part of my skill level that I feel is rather competent is my ability to throw items (although, I must admit that I'm not as good at it as I was on N64 a long time ago). How would you feel if you were only really good at using Fox's reflector (sounds like a lot of competitive players, right), yet because of certain unfair factors (like walking opponents of the edge), everyone who isn't you decided that Fox shouldn't be allowed to be played? Yeah, I know, they deal with those broken elements by banning stages (stupid... how about just ban players who abuse unfair oversights like that), but my point is that it would suck for you if your primary skill was thrown right out the window because one part of it MIGHT be unfair IN CERTAIN INSTANCES.

ps someone said something about L cancelling. Because I'm not into abusing glitches, I never took the effort to find out what this is, but from the sound of it, it's hitting L as you land to recover quickly. Is this right? If so, this is DEFINITELY an intended playing function. Also, I think someone said short hops or something. What's that?

pps

besides is stupid when someone says "let's not play with items because noobs can win with them"

Exactly... if it's that easy to win with items on, you should be able to do it without trouble if you have more skill.

[Squeek]

You might be thinking of a different L-cancel.

Tapping L when you're about to hit the ground after taking damage (IE, you're about to belly flop on the ground and be 'downed' until you hit a direction or an attack button) and doing a handspring or whatever is part of the game. What they're talking about is when you're just falling (in mario's case, he's doing the windmill with his arms trying to keep balance) and right before you hit the ground, you tap L. It shaves two or three frames off the land + touch ground + stand up actions.

I'm not saying it's a glitch, I'm just clarifying it for afro.

[ducky285]

Actually, L-canceling is reducing the lag an aerial attack causes upon landing on the ground during the attack. A good example is doing Bowser's back air just above the ground and seeing Bowser land flat on his back if he doesn't finish the attack before he lands.

Hitting L, R or Z during an aerial attack just before you land cancels that lag. In Bowser's case, he'll just get right back on his feet instead of falling on his back.

[DigitalS3r4ph]

dunno if this was posted but this is what the whole discussion reminds me of.

[Dark Sonic]

Kinda reminds me of certain people I play on Halo. XD

But hey, whatever happened to just, you know, having fun with the game? That is the point of video games, after all...>_>;

[Afrobean]

I can't speak for everyone who is as dissatisfied with the competitive subcommunity, but I can assure you that I would never get angry like that unless they were abusing things that should have been fixed in the development stages. I certainly would never say something to the effect of "stop being so good", except possibly as a joke. Also, I feel I must point out that if tiers are accepted as absolute truth, then characters AREN'T balanced, and if this assumption is made, then it's only a matter of HOW broken a character is. Personally, I don't feel that characters are TRULY broken, so long as they're played within fair limits, but then again, in the same regard, I refuse to believe that any of the characters actually suck.

ps Quick question for those who have touched 大乱闘スマッシュブラザーズX already: can I get an official statement on how Pikachu handles in relation to how he handles in previous games?

pps wtf why can't our version be called "Super Smash Bros. X". Why would they make it "Super Smash Bros. Brawl"? Along the same vein, why wasn't Melee called "Super Smash Bros. Deluxe"?

[Squeek]

I don't get the comic, sorry.

Sounds like some idiot is just angry at those who play competitively for no reason.

@Ducky: That's fall-canceling. That's shown in the instruction manual I think.

If you're hit in the air and are spinning to the ground and you don't do an attack, normally you'd hit the ground hard and stay down. Fall-canceling is tapping L right before hitting the ground and springing back into action. L-canceling is when you're falling normally (as in, you didn't just take damage) and you tap L right before you hit the ground. You shave a few animation frames off your landing. That's it. It's barely noticeable, but it's absolutely necessary if you want to get any decent distance in Home Run Contest with anyone other than Yoshi.

Also, I learned something while playing Kirby Superstar today. While it may seem like Kirby is an odd place for a lot of the origins of Super Smash Bros., I've found out that's exactly where it came from. In Kirby Superstar, there is both a) A mode where you collect trophies from all over various Nintendo games and b) A boss that is just a hand doing exactly the same actions as Master Hand. And with regards to Brawl, the entire Subspace Emissary is a take from Superstar. The doors, the buttons, the certain types of blocks, etc. Yes, the story is different and you play as different characters, but the core gameplay element is the same. It makes sense, too, since HAL Laboratories is the company that makes both Super Smash Bros. and Kirby.

[ducky285]

Actually, L-canceling is a glitch of sorts that eliminates lags upon landing during an aerial attack. It's a well-known and widely used technique in competitive circles. It's how people can short-hop, do an air attack, fast-fall to the ground, and still recover quickly enough to do it again. It's called SHFFLing. Look it up.

Seriously, test it out using Bowser. Use his back air attack just above the ground normally, then try it again but press L just before you land and see how he reacts.

What you're talking about might be wavelanding actually. If you press L right before landing and you're not doing an attack or falling like a dumbass, you'd air-dodge, and if you're pressing the stick downward, your character will air-dodge into the ground and slide on the floor with minimal lag.

[Squeek]

No. We're talking about the same damn thing.

[korny]

Originally Posted by DigitalS3r4ph

dunno if this was posted but this is what the whole discussion reminds me of.

That's the money.

[alster1]

Off topic, but I preordered this game today!

[Telvanni_guard]

Originally Posted by Squeek

I don't get the comic, sorry.

Sounds like some idiot is just angry at those who play competitively for no reason.

A comic dealing on assumptions. How a casual player looks at a tournament player.

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by DigitalS3r4ph

dunno if this was posted but this is what the whole discussion reminds me of.

lol thats funny.

[spiritking7]

woot i pre-ordered it too :P

[tsugomaru]

That comic doesn't even describe the situation at hand. In that comic, a guy, who shall be known as guy #1 from now on, is trying to have fun with playing SSBM and the other guy, guy#2, assumes that because guy#1 plays a certain character, Fox, is a tourney-goer. Guy#2 makes a big fuss over guy#1, who doesn't even care whether or not they use item, what map they play on, and doesn't use glitches. He even goes as far as choosing a "lower-tier" character to prove that he doesn't go to tournaments.

"Non-tourney goers" don't play low-tier characters, with item, no Fox, and no Final Destination to prove a point, they just play the game. Heck, I enjoy playing Final Destination because the background music is awesome.

~Tsugomaru