FC Stat bar - New Implementation

[xXOpkillerXx]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

Ok. There seems to be 2 main thought processes in here.

1. Relevance of secondary metrics regarding how we measure skill.

I can't emphasize enough the fact that it's perfectly fine for any game to have metrics/elements that aren't related to the main focus of the game. People have to accept that not everybody find meaning/fun in the same things.

If however you are adamant on redefining FC to become relevant to today's skill measure (since it was the case with Combo scoring), AND do not agree with point 2. below, please mention it.

2. Importance of a "good enough" metric.

The closest we have to this is SDG (Single Digit (Raw) Goods). This flag is fun, and I believe most people like it. However, although it's a nice metric that should stay, SDG is pretty close to a AAA relative to most songs note counts and/or structure.

Most suggested redefinitions of FC tend to reflect a need for a more loose, "good enough" metric that could be similar to a Etterna/Stepmania AA. I believe that with the implementation of such a metric, we would effectively satisfy most requests stated here.

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If there is enough agreement on this, I will start a new thread to discuss that new metric.

[Lights]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

Ok. There seems to be 2 main thought processes in here.

1. Relevance of secondary metrics regarding how we measure skill.

I can't emphasize enough the fact that it's perfectly fine for any game to have metrics/elements that aren't related to the main focus of the game. People have to accept that not everybody find meaning/fun in the same things.

If however you are adamant on redefining FC to become relevant to today's skill measure (since it was the case with Combo scoring), AND do not agree with point 2. below, please mention it.

2. Importance of a "good enough" metric.

The closest we have to this is SDG (Single Digit (Raw) Goods). This flag is fun, and I believe most people like it. However, although it's a nice metric that should stay, SDG is pretty close to a AAA relative to most songs note counts and/or structure.

Most suggested redefinitions of FC tend to reflect a need for a more loose, "good enough" metric that could be similar to a Etterna/Stepmania AA. I believe that with the implementation of such a metric, we would effectively satisfy most requests stated here.

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If there is enough agreement on this, I will start a new thread to discuss that new metric.

I think AA would be a nice flag to have and would make playing stuff well outside of your AAA/SDG range more engaging.

[Dynam0]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

The whole point of any progress bars / stats / etc. is so that you can glean useful information about a player's skills

The current FC bar tells us nothing because mashing of FCs exist...not to beat a dead horse lol

Seeing as the current skill rating meta is based on raw goods and combo means nothing then why bother with an FC progress bar at all?

An SDG progress bar seems like a great idea.

[xXOpkillerXx]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

The whole point of any progress bars / stats / etc. is so that you can glean useful information about a player's skills

The current FC bar tells us nothing because mashing of FCs exist...not to beat a dead horse lol

Seeing as the current skill rating meta is based on raw goods and combo means nothing then why bother with an FC progress bar at all?

An SDG progress bar seems like a great idea.

The argument of the "Progress Bars" isnt bad tbh. I would suggest you read my replies to OWA's posts, since they address this "skill measurement" side of it. That being said, when it comes to the bars on the player profile, FCs could indeed be removed from there and put elsewhere. However, I would be quite surprised if a significant amount of people still used profile completion bars to assess skill vs the leaderboards. I think there's an equally valid point to be made about how profiles can hold more trivial data that arent directly representative of skill anymore.

[WirryWoo]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

My opinion is to just simply hide (not necessarily remove) FC statistics on the profile. I have a few reasons to believe this.

Firstly, Dynam0 is correct in stating that the main goal of capturing statistics is to study useful information about a player's skillset. Back in the days when combo-based scoring played a significant role in defining player skills, FC counts actually represent something meaningful to the playerbase. Fast forward to today when raw-based scoring is now in effect, these counts had no relevance to the Skills Rating Formula used to measure AAA equivalency. Because of this, what was once a useful stat now became meaningless in today's standards due to this change of definition of "skill".

To address a few potential points:

Remove the metric: The main argument against keeping FC-related stats is the incentive to mash on charts, which is a remnant of the combo-scoring times of FFR. It is a valid argument, and it attempts to make the game more focused on the main metric instead. Removing this metric however means that some Tokens would need to be redefined, which is quite a bit more work; some players might have worked hard to unlock a given FC-based token. This approach would definitely require more unanimous approval from the community.

What I highlighted in bold isn't necessarily true. You can simply remove the bars but keep the FC stats in the backend reserved for token requirements. Not sure if that's easy to implement or not on the dev side of things though.

That being said, "encourages mashing" is a big statement, which I would tend to disagree with too. It would only encourage it for that given FC metric, which is well known to be an optional thing in FFR (Skill rating/AAA equiv being the main focus for ranked performance).

Leave the FC bar but make it include both regular FC's and FC*'s.
Even if FFR uses raw-good scoring now rather than combo-based scoring, the site still in some basis encourages players to mash for FCs like for quite a few skill token unlock requirements. Think that if the site slightly encourages that for skill tokens, it overall shouldn't be a reason to remove the FC bar altogether.

Disagree with what I highlighted above in bold. The combo-based scoring back in the old day incentivizes people to mash files, not the FC count. As Gradient mentioned, the only exception is the FC-related token requirements shown here, which are already generous enough not to encourage mashing due to the larger number of songs in the engine: https://www.flashflashrevolution.com...token_info.php. That said, you don't necessarily need the bars on your profile to make the token unlocks work. For that reason, it's why I suggested hiding the FC stats rather than removing it.

i like the FC bar, i can actually fill it up, unlike the AAA bar. Its a small neat completionist thing and its nice to have it around. It might not be the main focus of the game but its a cool side objective so why get rid of it. If AAA eq is the most important thing and we get rid of everything else, if i'm not getting new scores in my top 15 why play? I think having small things like this that you can grind are good side things to do while you're not playing your best.

Ever since the change from Combo scoring to Raw scoring I've wanted the FC bar to be reworked. I don't think it should be removed even if it's not getting reworked: some people are still interested in FC's even though it's flawed, and people that don't care about FC's can just ignore it.

These points are all fair, but then you can also make the same argument about playing with index, playing on rates, playing on Legacy engine, playing semi-pettanko, etc. Why is FC the only worthy metric to be acknowledged on the site vs these other different definitions of metrics or stats?

If we are extremely adamant about wanting to track FC's for "completionist reasons", incorporating FC* makes the FC stat much more confusing and incentivizes mashing:

a) Every current statistic in the game track information about the current state of your best scores. If you look at your level ranks, you can easily see what songs are AAA'd, FC'd, etc. If FC* is incorporated in the FC count, you should have a second column tracking what your best FC score is for each song to add more transparency on what is being counted as an FC* or not. Otherwise, you'll get questions like "What is an FC*?" But having two high scores per song is already too ridiculous of an idea.

b) FC* definitely encourages mashing... If you want to be completionist about filling up the FC + FC* bar, it's not going to be too challenging to mash your way through the song to at least register a FC* per song, and then replace all your high scores with your PBs. So introducing FC* would also encourage terrible gameplay for very little gain (since FCs don't matter in skill rating anyways...). The only gain you get from it is your satisfaction of completing the FC bar. In my opinion, not worth it.

I am however +1 for SDG bar. I'd ideally prefer it to be a different color or pattern laid on top of the AAA bar instead of it being considered a second bar in itself on the profile.

[xXOpkillerXx]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

Fwiw I'm 100% ok with removing FC's as a tracked metric. The point about the difficulty of its removal was mostly my quick thoughts, but if it turns out to be a simple thing then that just makes things simpler

I was mostly arguing the scenario where if it's to stay, it shouldnt stay as it is right now because it's not optimal at all.

[benny58624]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

These points are all fair, but then you can also make the same argument about playing with index, playing on rates, playing on Legacy engine, playing semi-pettanko, etc. Why is FC the only worthy metric to be acknowledged on the site vs these other different definitions of metrics or stats?

FC has been tracked since forever, and I know players that have getting FC's as their goal. They already spent a lot of hours in it. So removing it would be bad for them.

If FC's weren't tracked yet, then I do agree it shouldn't be tracked now. Just like playing with index, playing on rates, playing on Legacy engine, playing semi-pettanko, etc.

[WirryWoo]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

FC has been tracked since forever, and I know players that have getting FC's as their goal. They already spent a lot of hours in it. So removing it would be bad for them.

If FC's weren't tracked yet, then I do agree it shouldn't be tracked now. Just like playing with index, playing on rates, playing on Legacy engine, playing semi-pettanko, etc.

All of my top scores are also being tracked via Legacy Engine, but unfortunately they will be removing the engine by the end of this year. Even though it sucks for me, I accepted that.

However, my scores will not be wiped because they're removing Legacy engine. Similarly, their scores will not be wiped because they're removing the FC bar on the profile. If they really care about FCs, they should be happier about the scores they receive on their accounts.

If the only definition of value for these players are simply "filling up the FC bar", then I honestly don't know what to say lmfao.

[Gradiant]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

As Gradient mentioned, the only exception is the FC-related token requirements shown here, which are already generous enough not to encourage mashing due to the larger number of songs in the engine: https://www.flashflashrevolution.com...token_info.php.

1) You're forgetting the skill tokens where you have to FC a single specific file that is either too difficult throughout for a lower level player like extratone pirates, or FC something that's alright but with an extremely bullshit section prone to mash through to combo like Music for kirby.

2) You saying that %range of files for certain 'Normal/Achievement' Token unlocks is generous because of number of files is also ignoring the lower level players that are still going to be going for the unlock by, you know, mainly mashing it because they're not at the skill level that the majority of files you're talking about are at.

[xXOpkillerXx]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

If the only definition of value for these players are simply "filling up the FC bar", then I honestly don't know what to say lmfao.

It's as if you've never in your life seen someone enjoy a completely optional side quest or minigame of any game ever. Can't you let people have their own fun that doesn't 100% match yours ? Smh. Yes there have been legit arguments on both sides, but the more you post the more it's about "a feature you dont care about shouldn't exist".

[Jonlovesddr]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

i would really like an SDG bar

[xXOpkillerXx]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

Yep, I think there has not been a single opinion against SDG bar so far. Surely that would be the priority in all that's been discussed given the positive reaction for it.

[WirryWoo]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

It's as if you've never in your life seen someone enjoy a completely optional side quest or minigame of any game ever. Can't you let people have their own fun that doesn't 100% match yours ? Smh. Yes there have been legit arguments on both sides, but the more you post the more it's about "a feature you dont care about shouldn't exist".

It's cool to have these optional side quests but how many do we need to really make this enjoyable for every player on FFR? A few years from now there's probably going to be a similar thread saying something like "Let's add Amazing Counts on all player's level ranks because it distinguishes the better players from the pool of players that previously AAA'd the file" because this definition of fun (maximizing MA) is currently not officially recognized in FFR.

There has to be a point where these "side quests" are way too many (but sure you can argue that point as subjective too). Just because it's not officially recognized in game, doesn't mean the player cannot do it. By all means, FC all the files to your heart's content. It's more of a question of whether you want these stats to be considered "officially recognized on FFR" or not. This is what I'm debating about, not if "FCing all files is considered fun or not".

[xXOpkillerXx]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

It's cool to have these optional side quests but how many do we need to really make this enjoyable for every player on FFR? A few years from now there's probably going to be a similar thread saying something like "Let's add Amazing Counts on all player's level ranks because it distinguishes the better players from the pool of players that previously AAA'd the file" because this definition of fun (maximizing MA) is currently not officially recognized in FFR.

There has to be a point where these "side quests" are way too many (but sure you can argue that point as subjective too). Just because it's not officially recognized in game, doesn't mean the player cannot do it. By all means, FC all the files to your heart's content. It's more of a question of whether you want these stats to be considered "officially recognized on FFR" or not. This is what I'm debating about, not if "FCing all files is considered fun or not".

Again, it's fair to say that you find it meaningless. However there's no reason for the game to stay static regarding its optional content if others find interest in the changes. I'd even argue that it brings diversity for the ones who may want different things to go for.

Also your example is Only applicable if the amazing counts were to be made visible somewhere that isn't related to how skill is computed, otherwise it wouldn't be an optional thing anymore wrt what FFR considers the main goal.

[One Winged Angel]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

The whole point of any progress bars / stats / etc. is so that you can glean useful information about a player's skills

The current FC bar tells us nothing because mashing of FCs exist...not to beat a dead horse lol.

Yes, this is exactly why I find the metric pointless to track. I never explicitly stated the intended existence of a progress bar, assuming it was inferred they're to provide meaningful information in some facet or aid in a player's skill development. Mashing full combos simply to fill the bar as a "minigame or side quest" does neither.