what society forces us to do v.s what we should do

[awein999]

I'm in school and I'm heading to my history class. I see one of my friends in the library is distressed and upset. I go over and spend a few minutes comforting him. This makes me late to history and I get in trouble. I did the right thing, putting some one elses feelings above what society is telling me I should have done.

shouldn't we live only by what we see in ourselves rather than the influence of others all around us? There should be no one telling me how to behave. No teachers telling me to comform, no parents telling me to act a certain way, no siblings telling me how to be. We learn best from ourselves and our own faults. School trains us to always be on task and never to sin. I think this is the opposite of what life should be. We learn from the act of sinning. Without sinning and the ability to reflect upon it, we are nothing but empty shells worried about our petty problems.

ok got it but it's impossible to live as a true transcendentalist in this society because I must conform to an extent to what society believes is right because I won't be able to go to a good college or have a definitie future. I can't tell my Spanish teacher, "I don't have to organize my notebook." or "this is pointless to organize the way you tell me to. I would know what is best for me, not you.", because I'll fail the class (notebook is 30% of our grade and she surely would not want to give me a good grade in other things after hearing me say that) and I won't be able to get into a good college and I'll dissapoint people around me. Of those of you who have addressed this issue what do you do about it? It is impossible to be a true transcendentalist but I don't want to blindly follow all aspects of society even when it is clearly wrong.

[UphoricSHD]

This only makes me stop and think, would a true transcendentalist be writing to a community of socialists?

Would he/she be confronting society at all?

I believe the show Dexter is a great example of a character stuck between the justice we may incur upon the guilty and the consequences that fit the crime. When a murderer goes free, is it not right to incur "justice" upon the "guilty"?

The 'rights' of man are a constantly changing opinion.
It's hard to clarify to a child raised to kill that killing is wrong.
To the child, killing is 'right' and justified.

Personally I think that rules are made to be broken and without rules... what would you break haha. All thoughts aside, your views are rebellious and rather egocentrical.
What about what's fair and the definition of the good of the people?

Don't you think if we all persued what we personally believe in, the world would be chaos?

[dore]

You are a part of society, therefore you have to act within the conventions of society. You are in school and you're expected to be in class at a certain time, so if you're not there on time you get punished. That's just the way it is. You have to deal with that and even if you think you are a transcendentalist then you still will have to work within the confines of society until you get the resources to find your own place and live without society.

The world you live in is the world you live in, and whether or not you agree with society you are forced to work within it to some extent just because it exists. Sorry.

[lord_carbo]

Originally Posted by awein999

This makes me late to history and I get in trouble. I did the right thing, putting some one elses feelings above what society is telling me I should have done.

Why do you think "society" isn't telling you that it was a good idea to sit down with him? Because some teacher got upset at you? Well why should any teacher accept your excuses, not knowing what you're doing and if you're lying, and why should you be expected to not face the consequences of not going to class unless in dire circumstances? You clearly demonstrated that you'd have rather stuck with your friend despite the consequences... well OK, then take the punishment.

Originally Posted by awein999

There should be no one telling me how to behave. No teachers telling me to comform, no parents telling me to act a certain way, no siblings telling me how to be.

Well why not? The people are telling you how to behave in order for you to be more acceptable to them and so you're not a burden around them and other people. Well you don't want them to tell you how to behave? OK, but don't be surprised if people start disliking you, because how they think you should behave on average will represent how other people think you should behave, which is usually the only way you'll get people to tolerate you.

You are expected to conform if you are to take place in society because just as you have the will to do whatever you want, people have the will to do whatever they want, which includes disassociating with you. We act within a set of rules implied by society because that's what people generally look for in order to associate with one another. Without these implied standards, it is rather hard for people to get along because we'd all be burdens to everybody we talk to, so naturally because humans want to be social with a lot of people, these standards will exist no matter what. So as far as I can tell, there isn't too much wrong with conforming to society's standards.

Maybe if you are excessively being told "how to behave," you should really consider changing how you behave because quite frankly I don't experience your problem except with my parents. Perhaps you're a burden to people with whom you associate, and I would not be too surprised with your "railing against the system" attitude of nonconformity, which suggests that you do not conform to certain standards other people hold.

Originally Posted by awein999

We learn best from ourselves and our own faults. School trains us to always be on task and never to sin. I think this is the opposite of what life should be. We learn from the act of sinning. Without sinning and the ability to reflect upon it, we are nothing but empty shells worried about our petty problems.

If you're taught how to not make a mistake before you make a mistake, you can not only assure that you never make it, but you won't face the consequences of the mistake. I also think that you're gravely overestimating your and other people's ability to do self-analysis and not make mistakes on the second time around. It's a lot easier to just learn, for example, the Pythagorean theorem, then to have someone present the idea that there's a relationship between the legs and the hypotenuse of a right triangle, and have you find it and make them solve for your mistakes. In fact, districts that focus on rote learning (like Japan and Korea) tend to score high on standardized tests and in math. I believe that this is for numerous reasons, including: most people can't teach children math intuitively, and most children can't formulate and understand proofs for advanced mathematical concepts. And it is strong evidence that "learning from your own mistakes" is rather inefficient. It suggests autonomy, but in order to develop the rules yourself you must think of a proper solution, either by luck or by being extremely gifted. It's much more efficient to have someone else understand it or find out how to understand it for you. And even if someone is so gifted as to understand something and formulate proofs autonomously, why waste time at all having them find the solution to problems that have already been solved by others, when they can understand a solution to a problem upon explanation? It may seem to you that I've drifted into the math realm and it's much different here than say, a ethical realm. I disagree. It is the same in any case, as in any case you will be wasting time going through things that don't work when the right way is available and can be justified strongly.

[x After Dawn x]

I stopped by the cafeteria and I was late for class because I was waiting in line to get a cheeseburger. This made me late to class and I got in trouble. I did what was right for me, putting that priority above what society is telling me.

Honestly, there's little to no point in your example and almost in your point altogether. Society exists for a reason, and there's a reason why there are rules put in place to be followed by everyone in the society. If everybody started turning away from the rules and started doing whatever they wanted to, then society would fall apart and crumble. An example of this could be France under the absolute monarchy of its king and queen before the French Revolution. Those in the rich classes could avoid paying taxes, and all the taxes were forced to be paid by the lower classes. This led to the society crumbling and falling apart.

Your example can be compared to a criminal who shot somebody in order to take their money for his daughter's surgery because his daughter was dying. Your example may not be as severe and grave as the example with the criminal, but the criminal needed to do what was right for himself and put that priority over society, which is the same point about what you did to help your friend. In the end, it doesn't matter because rules exist to be followed, not broken. If they are broken, then there are consequences for the actions taken. Simple as that.

[tha Guardians]

Originally Posted by dore

You are a part of society, therefore you have to act within the conventions of society. You are in school and you're expected to be in class at a certain time, so if you're not there on time you get punished. That's just the way it is. You have to deal with that and even if you think you are a transcendentalist then you still will have to work within the confines of society until you get the resources to find your own place and live without society.

The world you live in is the world you live in, and whether or not you agree with society you are forced to work within it to some extent just because it exists. Sorry.

Still I refuse to conform to anything beyond my personal belief. I'm often called rebellious and insubordinate. Truly I'm only worried about justice and liberty. I follow morality, not upbringing. If I don't want to do my schoolwork, I don't. I don't do it to hurt anyone or to make a statement, I just express the freedom I'm told I have. Society demands nothing of me as long as I demand nothing of society. It is my opinion that you should only be expected to contribute if it's beneficial. Who do I benefit by sitting in a freezing school for 8 hours? It's certainly not anyone but myself. So should I not be able to stay home disregarding the fact that negative repercussions affect no one but me?

How is that just. Society simply finds reason to want to control me and mold me into the person people think I should be. I'm much more worried about being the person I want to be. I'm sick of so much being expected of me, and so little being appreciated. Rarely do I do anything to hurt anyone, yet I'm hurt often just because I don't meet someone's idealistic standards.

Originally Posted by x After Dawn x

I stopped by the cafeteria and I was late for class because I was waiting in line to get a cheeseburger. This made me late to class and I got in trouble. I did what was right for me, putting that priority above what society is telling me.

Honestly, there's little to no point in your example and almost in your point altogether. Society exists for a reason, and there's a reason why there are rules put in place to be followed by everyone in the society. If everybody started turning away from the rules and started doing whatever they wanted to, then society would fall apart and crumble. An example of this could be France under the absolute monarchy of its king and queen before the French Revolution. Those in the rich classes could avoid paying taxes, and all the taxes were forced to be paid by the lower classes. This led to the society crumbling and falling apart.

Your example can be compared to a criminal who shot somebody in order to take their money for his daughter's surgery because his daughter was dying. Your example may not be as severe and grave as the example with the criminal, but the criminal needed to do what was right for himself and put that priority over society, which is the same point about what you did to help your friend. In the end, it doesn't matter because rules exist to be followed, not broken. If they are broken, then there are consequences for the actions taken. Simple as that.

Spider-man 3?

I'd like to point out that in his example, he's not hurting anyone.

Also I believe he's only trying to state that peoples' expectancy of each other is misplaced. That's just how I read it, though.

[Clarissa_Rainbow]

Yes it is unfair that we are unable to fully speak our minds. But sometimes this is set for the greater good, some people would take advantage of it, ad it would be totally anarchy. Live would be simpler if we had peace combined with anarchy no rules, but is taken advantage of. Understand?

I'm sorry please excuse the many typos, I'm having issues typing tonight. Sorry

[tha Guardians]

I understand. Is English your second language? You're pretty well-spoken, but it could use some work.

Also, welcome to FFR.
Please read the rules and stickies :3

Now back to the topic.

[Cavernio]

Well, like's been said already, we learn from society/others for a reason. In the most extreme cases, people who don't have enough social interaction as children end up not learning enough and are mentally retarded.

As far as addressing the problem about having to conform to fit in, well, I've tried doing what the-Guardians says he does, basically not doing things when I don't want to.
It sucks. Trust me. Being lazy is not all it's made out to be. I've also tried sequestering myself from people so that at least they won't get mad at me or dissappointed in me. This too also sucks. I suspect the best answer is to not think about this too much. If someone gets mad at you for not doing something, and you had a perfectly good reason not to, get pissed off about that incident and that's it. Also, think about the rewards you'll get from doing something that you don't want to do, rather than at how useless or terrible what you're doing is. For instance, think about how easy it will be to get a good grade in a class where 30% of your mark is apparently based on following rules that aren't actually useful, instead of how stupid and retarded that is. The last thing you should do is brood over crap like that.

[Nyokou]

Originally Posted by tha Guardians

Who do I benefit by sitting in a freezing school for 8 hours? It's certainly not anyone but myself. So should I not be able to stay home disregarding the fact that negative repercussions affect no one but me?

How is that just. Society simply finds reason to want to control me and mold me into the person people think I should be. I'm much more worried about being the person I want to be. I'm sick of so much being expected of me, and so little being appreciated.

First of all, yes, you are right. The only person that it would affect is you and no one else. And who is the most important person? You. You are important and no one else. Even if you don't want to be there or do any of the work the only motivation for you should be that you do it to be better than everyone else. And in a society like America, education is important - it's always important.

You may not even use all that knowledge for the rest of your life but at least you will be learned. And still, either if you choose to work hard or not at all, both situations are selfish. Now tell me, which is better: being selfish to become the best you can be or being selfish when given the opportunity - a free opportunity - that not everyone in the world has.

You are VERY ungrateful for the things you have, Jack, and you are VERY selfish in a negative manner because there are kids in the world, in poor countries, that don't have the opportunity that you have. You need to stop the games, because you're only hurting yourself and that makes you weak.

I want you to be strong. You NEED to get your life on track, NOT for anyone's approval or appreciation but for YOURSELF.

Society is in a way molding you into what you need to be for the better. These trials and this period of your life is to teach you that you need to become a strong individual and leave everyone behind in the dust. You're smart, you're funny, you're amazing - all these wonderful qualities you have are going to waste because you're giving up too early. You don't care about yourself, and you should.

You are your own motivation. No one else.

So what's it going to be, Jack?

Are you going to be another face in the crowd, or are you going to rise above everyone's expectations?

Do it for yourself. Follow the rules, follow the monotony of society. You are still very young. I don't want to see you fail, please.

[tha Guardians]

Originally Posted by Nyokou

First of all, yes, you are right. The only person that it would affect is you and no one else. And who is the most important person? You. You are important and no one else. Even if you don't want to be there or do any of the work the only motivation for you should be that you do it to be better than everyone else. And in a society like America, education is important - it's always important.

You may not even use all that knowledge for the rest of your life but at least you will be learned. And still, either if you choose to work hard or not at all, both situations are selfish. Now tell me, which is better: being selfish to become the best you can be or being selfish when given the opportunity - a free opportunity - that not everyone in the world has.

You are VERY ungrateful for the things you have, Jack, and you are VERY selfish in a negative manner because there are kids in the world, in poor countries, that don't have the opportunity that you have. You need to stop the games, because you're only hurting yourself and that makes you weak.

I want you to be strong. You NEED to get your life on track, NOT for anyone's approval or appreciation but for YOURSELF.

Society is in a way molding you into what you need to be for the better. These trials and this period of your life is to teach you that you need to become a strong individual and leave everyone behind in the dust. You're smart, you're funny, you're amazing - all these wonderful qualities you have are going to waste because you're giving up too early. You don't care about yourself, and you should.

You are your own motivation. No one else.

So what's it going to be, Jack?

Are you going to be another face in the crowd, or are you going to rise above everyone's expectations?

Do it for yourself. Follow the rules, follow the monotony of society. You are still very young. I don't want to see you fail, please.

ROFL

Way to get personal.
Thanks v.v;