Anti-LGBTQIA+ legislation staying lowkey but with big impact

[DossarLX ODI]

Re: Anti-LGBTQIA+ legislation staying lowkey but with big impact

Just let people do whatever the fuck they want to do behind closed doors, jesus christ. As long as it's not hurting anyone.

"They didn't vote for us so make them suffer financially and mentally. And physically if legally possible."

[Hakulyte]

Re: Anti-LGBTQIA+ legislation staying lowkey but with big impact

(3) An employee or contractor of a public K-12 educational
institution may not provide to a student his or her preferred
personal title or pronouns if such preferred personal title or
pronouns do not correspond to his or her sex.
(4) A student may not be asked by an employee or
contractor of a public K-12 educational institution to provide
his or her preferred personal title or pronouns or be penalized
or subjected to adverse or discriminatory treatment for not
providing his or her preferred personal title or pronouns.

All I see here is the educational institution wanting to protect its employees/contractors and the students by not providing their pronouns to each other so they do not become accountable from that specific direct interaction. I think the goal here was just to avoid potential conflicts of interest within the context of a school environment. I don't think it's as bad as it sounds on a quick read. It's just a professional vs student scenario. That being said, I can already see that if this stays, there could be an attempt at expanding these laws to more than just schools. This is where it gets controversial imo. It really feels like these states are just testing the waters with what to do. The joke here is that this just highlight how education could be better in regards of how to deal with people in general. If education doesn't educate about that, who will ? Accountability sure is an underrated topic.

tldr; I hope you guys like backpedaling because I'm predicting you're gonna see more back and forth like this for a while.

[Mollocephalus]

Re: Anti-LGBTQIA+ legislation staying lowkey but with big impact

This has been brewing for a while and it's effectively a way to sneak in some (in the grand scheme of things) low impact legislation to pave the way for more reactionary repression of the rights we've got so far. It's pretty sad tbh, and even if you're not directly touched by any of it, what will follow might. But it's also not shocking considering the western world has been in a trend of polarization of ideals thanks in great part to social media algorhytms and targeted advertising (political and not)

[Lights]

Re: Anti-LGBTQIA+ legislation staying lowkey but with big impact

(3) An employee or contractor of a public K-12 educational
institution may not provide to a student his or her preferred
personal title or pronouns if such preferred personal title or
pronouns do not correspond to his or her sex.
(4) A student may not be asked by an employee or
contractor of a public K-12 educational institution to provide
his or her preferred personal title or pronouns or be penalized
or subjected to adverse or discriminatory treatment for not
providing his or her preferred personal title or pronouns.

All I see here is the educational institution wanting to protect its employees/contractors and the students by not providing their pronouns to each other so they do not become accountable from that specific direct interaction. I think the goal here was just to avoid potential conflicts of interest within the context of a school environment. I don't think it's as bad as it sounds on a quick read. It's just a professional vs student scenario. That being said, I can already see that if this stays, there could be an attempt at expanding these laws to more than just schools. This is where it gets controversial imo. It really feels like these states are just testing the waters with what to do. The joke here is that this just highlight how education could be better in regards of how to deal with people in general. If education doesn't educate about that, who will ? Accountability sure is an underrated topic.

tldr; I hope you guys like backpedaling because I'm predicting you're gonna see more back and forth like this for a while.

The problem with this is that pronouns are pretty integral to day to day communication. If I'm a teacher in that school and I'm not allowed to say to use she / her pronouns im like... quitting that job that day. I'm not about to sit there and be misgendered constantly on a daily basis while being underpaid to teach. I'd imagine the majority of trans teachers out there would be in a similar boat- deal with stressful interactions all day or find a new career path. And then you end up with trans people being gradually pushed out of teaching as a result... why?

Imo, its exactly as bad as it reads. The students simply can't be asked to provide their pronouns- dumb, but nothing about them providing them on their own free will. Teachers, however, are outright not allowed to use pronouns that don't align with their birth sex. Which is unacceptable. Teachers are people too.

[DossarLX ODI]

Re: Anti-LGBTQIA+ legislation staying lowkey but with big impact

Adding on to what Lights said, this has real impact on teachers. In Florida what's colloquially known as the "Don't Say Gay Bill" actually can make teachers lose their license to teach.

How in the world are teachers supposed to navigate this? The answer is, in constant fear of getting fired for failing to discriminate as much as the Florida government wants. For the first time in my nine-year career as a public school teacher, I’m seriously thinking about quitting. And I am not alone: hundreds of thousands of Florida students started school last year without a permanent teacher while the state has struggled to fill thousands of openings.

Here's a Florida teacher that got fired shortly after she put up artwork from her students that related to pride flags.

This is effectively a way of violating the first amendment without explicitly saying it. You'll hear justifications like "protecting the innocence of children" or "not indoctrinating our youth" or "not following the state mandated curriculum".

However, these policies are making these topics to be impossible for teachers to discuss without risk of losing their jobs.

Say boys like girls, girls like boys, that's good. But some boys like boys, or some girls like girls, and explain the term straight, bisexual, and gay? Say goodbye to your teaching license.

And with pronouns, well... that's forcing the school to adopt "there are only two genders" and "trans people don't exist/are mentally ill".

Even if someone claims this is unconstitutional, the court system in the U.S. is very slow. So even if a bill is deemed unconstitutional, it can still remain in place for years.

All this does is create an atmosphere of fear and shame for teacher and students. Being someone that myself works in the education industry, this is entirely backwards and stifles free speech.

[PBR420]

Re: Anti-LGBTQIA+ legislation staying lowkey but with big impact

^There should be teachers that specialize in what you're talking about so all the other teachers can just relax and teach their own subject without having to worry about anything.

[Hakulyte]

Re: Anti-LGBTQIA+ legislation staying lowkey but with big impact

The problem with this is that pronouns are pretty integral to day to day communication. If I'm a teacher in that school and I'm not allowed to say to use she / her pronouns im like... quitting that job that day. I'm not about to sit there and be misgendered constantly on a daily basis while being underpaid to teach. I'd imagine the majority of trans teachers out there would be in a similar boat- deal with stressful interactions all day or find a new career path. And then you end up with trans people being gradually pushed out of teaching as a result... why?

Imo, its exactly as bad as it reads. The students simply can't be asked to provide their pronouns- dumb, but nothing about them providing them on their own free will. Teachers, however, are outright not allowed to use pronouns that don't align with their birth sex. Which is unacceptable. Teachers are people too.

First reflex as a teacher would be to use "they" and/or dodge the use of pronouns in the first place to avoid potential issues. I would expect students to do the same.The topic would be avoided. Still a decent chance of getting fired from using they instead of he/she. I wonder where's the line. I feel like depending where it is this could go from acceptable to completely unjustified.

Adding on to what Lights said, this has real impact on teachers. In Florida what's colloquially known as the "Don't Say Gay Bill" actually can make teachers lose their license to teach.



Here's a Florida teacher that got fired shortly after she put up artwork from her students that related to pride flags.

This is effectively a way of violating the first amendment without explicitly saying it. You'll hear justifications like "protecting the innocence of children" or "not indoctrinating our youth" or "not following the state mandated curriculum".

However, these policies are making these topics to be impossible for teachers to discuss without risk of losing their jobs.

Say boys like girls, girls like boys, that's good. But some boys like boys, or some girls like girls, and explain the term straight, bisexual, and gay? Say goodbye to your teaching license.

And with pronouns, well... that's forcing the school to adopt "there are only two genders" and "trans people don't exist/are mentally ill".

Even if someone claims this is unconstitutional, the court system in the U.S. is very slow. So even if a bill is deemed unconstitutional, it can still remain in place for years.

All this does is create an atmosphere of fear and shame for teacher and students. Being someone that myself works in the education industry, this is entirely backwards and stifles free speech.

Logically, it makes sense they would need a lack of transparency for making this work. It just looks so silly from an outside perspective. It just makes me feel like they're out of touch with the topic and don't want to be accountable for it. So, they simply create the tools to be able to continue doing so and you get this. That's pretty impressive in a bad way. I kind of get why this is happening, but I feel like they should have been more transparent about it. Maybe they're not ready to be ?

[_choof]

Re: Anti-LGBTQIA+ legislation staying lowkey but with big impact

^There should be teachers that specialize in what you're talking about so all the other teachers can just relax and teach their own subject without having to worry about anything.

how can teachers specialize in this when states are criminalizing the discussion of it in the first place

[mi40]

Re: Anti-LGBTQIA+ legislation staying lowkey but with big impact

psst mi40 has always been homophobic

by ur definition then all schools have been homophobic prior to like 2010 lol
i dont expect teachers to know everyone's pronouns on a case by case basis unless it's specifically a part of one's official documentation
it's like expecting airport security to refer to you by your pronouns without said pronouns being a part of your passport
that being said the drag shows and whatever being banned is dumb with no logic behind it cuz like ppl said it's stuff being done behind closed doors, who cares

[mi40]

Re: Anti-LGBTQIA+ legislation staying lowkey but with big impact

if u truly wish to make pronouns a universally accepted thing, make it a part of official documentation like ur citizenship, driver's license etc so that everyone's on the same page, obviously that's probably a near impossible task but that's what needs to be done if u wanna stop seeing all the back and forth regarding lgbtq acceptance

[Lights]

Re: Anti-LGBTQIA+ legislation staying lowkey but with big impact

by ur definition then all schools have been homophobic prior to like 2010 lol
i dont expect teachers to know everyone's pronouns on a case by case basis unless it's specifically a part of one's official documentation
it's like expecting airport security to refer to you by your pronouns without said pronouns being a part of your passport
that being said the drag shows and whatever being banned is dumb with no logic behind it cuz like ppl said it's stuff being done behind closed doors, who cares

If you walk up to me and you misgender me out of nowhere, not knowing anything about me- im not going to be thrilled about it, but im not going to hold it against you. The response would be to correct it afterwards and now hey- we're on the same page, conversation can resume. If airport security or any other random stranger makes that mistake, its not going to be the end of the world (so long as they're not going out of there way to be jerks about it). In a teacher-student dynamic where youll both be seeing eachother every day for the greater part of a year, I believe teachers should be able to learn how to refer to their students within the first week or two. being able to remember details like that about your students is just like... part of being a good teacher. After a couple corrections, thats going to stick with you.

Believe me, if things like legal name changes / sex changes weren't prohibitively expensive and complicated to perform, I'd love to get my own personal documentation updated. But unfortunately, some places can tend to make that rather hard to do. This is something that I personally believe should be addressed, but in the meantime- it doesn't hurt to take the time to remember the pronouns of someone you're going to see more than once. paperwork or not.

[Funnygurl555]

Re: Anti-LGBTQIA+ legislation staying lowkey but with big impact

by ur definition then all schools have been homophobic prior to like 2010 lol
i dont expect teachers to know everyone's pronouns on a case by case basis unless it's specifically a part of one's official documentation
it's like expecting airport security to refer to you by your pronouns without said pronouns being a part of your passport
that being said the drag shows and whatever being banned is dumb with no logic behind it cuz like ppl said it's stuff being done behind closed doors, who cares

the legislation's tryna ban teaching about pronouns or providing one's pronouns or asking kiddos what their pronouns are. it's not about requiring teachers to know kids' pronouns

if u truly wish to make pronouns a universally accepted thing, make it a part of official documentation like ur citizenship, driver's license etc so that everyone's on the same page, obviously that's probably a near impossible task but that's what needs to be done if u wanna stop seeing all the back and forth regarding lgbtq acceptance

considering iowa's tryna ban gay marriage i doubt even this would make people accept pronouns

[mi40]

Re: Anti-LGBTQIA+ legislation staying lowkey but with big impact

the legislation's tryna ban teaching about pronouns or providing one's pronouns or asking kiddos what their pronouns are. it's not about requiring teachers to know kids' pronouns



considering iowa's tryna ban gay marriage i doubt even this would make people accept pronouns

okay then it's my fault for not understanding the legislation completely, i thought it was to be mandated, prohibiting asking completely is a whole another story

[PBR420]

Re: Anti-LGBTQIA+ legislation staying lowkey but with big impact

What's wrong with just using the kids name instead of pronouns? If the kid doesn't like their name they can just provide a nickname or something that the teacher can use instead. And if there is a situation where a pronoun must be used no matter what "they" works for everyone.

[_choof]

Re: Anti-LGBTQIA+ legislation staying lowkey but with big impact

lol