TWG 194 - Postgame

[ShadoWolfe]

Re: TWG 194 - Postgame

I've always listened to FFA. I've said this many times, but his reads, wherever they come from, are right a surprising amount of the time. Even in this game, right up until the fake claim, his play was superb. He was vocal and talking to everyone.

If you disagree with his reads, then fine. Disagree. Talk about it. That helps town by putting ideas to the test against each other. But dismissing him and refusing to entertain his ideas doesn't make him bad, it makes whoever does that bad. The fact that he felt driven to fake claim because:
"how else can I lynch dbp"... "this was the best thing I could do"... "how else can I lynch dbp" is a failure on every player who dismisses/ignores any other player in this server. That needs to change


With all that said, once he fake claims as town and is caught in an impossible world and retracts only thereafter, it becomes incumbent to lynch him and resolve the slot. There's ways to fps well and ways where trying it causes a town collapse as town PRs out in defense of wolves because of a VT fake claiming. And saying you're gonna do it AGAIN, FFA, is only gonna drive people away from listening to you ever.

[ShadoWolfe]

Re: TWG 194 - Postgame

Town couldn't have deserved a win less then here. This game was absolutely filled to the brim with horrible plays, decisions, and baffling gambits that did nothing to help town's agenda. I'm no exception considering I wasn't even paying close attention, but there's no way we've collectively played a solid game here.

If I was in charge I'd delete the damn thread

Nah. You're just bitter 'cause DBP (kidding [emoji14] but I did say you'd regret it in postgame)

More seriously: Yes there were two bad plays, but as a whole town came together and brought home the win.

That just goes to show that any situation is reversible and assuming a town loss because X isn't productive.

[ShadoWolfe]

Re: TWG 194 - Postgame

Since we're having a meta conversation courtesy of FG...

FFRTWG as a whole is a really strong server. Anyone who's played anywhere else and came back here has said the same thing. We're the only mafia server that exists that has sent as many reps to World Finals as there are seasons of MU World Champs.

All of that is worth being proud of. Our sitemeta as a whole prides itself on optimal plays. Which is great, but people play differently. So what ends up happening is the players that fit within the sitemeta get listened to, and people with a different play style don't. That's the only thing I'd change. Do I think we need to be more open to town fake claims? No, I think they aren't optimal town play and there's always a better way of making a case. We have the record we have for a reason, and the meta on here IS solid.

And the way that our consideration of other playstyles as a whole can change is simple. Everyone here already knows that optimal play and town play aren't the same thing: townies make suboptimal plays and wolves can make optimal town plays to get townread. But what knowing that has produced thus far towards different playstyles is an attitude of "I read you town but I'm gonna ignore your thoughts". That's what's bad. So we all need to look in the mirror and ask ourselves if that pride of being a "strong player who gets listened to" results in that attitude of dismissal. Because it shouldn't. If they're town, then the different perspective they offer is always gonna be beneficial to talk about.

We all also need to look in the mirror and ask ourselves if our "different play style" encourages discussion, or just results from frustration from people reading you wrong. Because what we can ALL do is share the why and the how of what we believe. Meaning if I think player X is scum, I gotta build my case rationally and not on the assumption that I'm obviously town and he's obviously scum.

If both the people that play to site meta and people that don't can do those things, then we'll be a much better site as a whole.

[Funnygurl555]

Re: TWG 194 - Postgame

Since we're having a meta conversation courtesy of FG...

FFRTWG as a whole is a really strong server. Anyone who's played anywhere else and came back here has said the same thing. We're the only mafia server that exists that has sent as many reps to World Finals as there are seasons of MU World Champs.

All of that is worth being proud of. Our sitemeta as a whole prides itself on optimal plays. Which is great, but people play differently. So what ends up happening is the players that fit within the sitemeta get listened to, and people with a different play style don't. That's the only thing I'd change. Do I think we need to be more open to town fake claims? No, I think they aren't optimal town play and there's always a better way of making a case. We have the record we have for a reason, and the meta on here IS solid.

And the way that our consideration of other playstyles as a whole can change is simple. Everyone here already knows that optimal play and town play aren't the same thing: townies make suboptimal plays and wolves can make optimal town plays to get townread. But what knowing that has produced thus far towards different playstyles is an attitude of "I read you town but I'm gonna ignore your thoughts". That's what's bad. So we all need to look in the mirror and ask ourselves if that pride of being a "strong player who gets listened to" results in that attitude of dismissal. Because it shouldn't. If they're town, then the different perspective they offer is always gonna be beneficial to talk about.

We all also need to look in the mirror and ask ourselves if our "different play style" encourages discussion, or just results from frustration from people reading you wrong. Because what we can ALL do is share the why and the how of what we believe. Meaning if I think player X is scum, I gotta build my case rationally and not on the assumption that I'm obviously town and he's obviously scum.

If both the people that play to site meta and people that don't can do those things, then we'll be a much better site as a whole.

i agree wholeheartedly with this post

[Makilaz]

Re: TWG 194 - Postgame

I have a single game submission so far please send me more for voting

[MixMasterLar]

Re: TWG 194 - Postgame

"how else can I lynch dbp"... "this was the best thing I could do"... "how else can I lynch dbp" is a failure on every player who dismisses/ignores any other player in this server. That needs to change

No, thats bullshit

He read DBP scum for no reason other then feels scum and couldnt make a solid case that wasn't "I just feel it guys listen to me" and then instead of building worlds with partners or tackling different aspects of the game he fakeclaimed putting the remaining town PR at risk.

Thats not other people playing badly and you know it.

[Ulleabhara]

Re: TWG 194 - Postgame

Live footage of town this game:

https://ytcropper.com/cropped/kN5eb508ad9d527

[Bolth mannn]

Re: TWG 194 - Postgame

@meta

As a new player, I meant what I said in the thread. This is a solid community but it’s not overly welcoming to new players. There’s a lot of strong players who, while good at the game, just try to take control and bully everyone else who make unconfident or inexperienced reads, or people that aren’t always as active as we’d like them to be.

I think the community as a whole needs to try and be more accepting of the different ways people try to play, and not be so quick to dismiss people. Engage even if you think something isn’t a threat or ‘not worth engaging with’

[XelNya]

Re: TWG 194 - Postgame

@meta

As a new player, I meant what I said in the thread. This is a solid community but it’s not overly welcoming to new players. There’s a lot of strong players who, while good at the game, just try to take control and bully everyone else who make unconfident or inexperienced reads, or people that aren’t always as active as we’d like them to be.

I think the community as a whole needs to try and be more accepting of the different ways people try to play, and not be so quick to dismiss people. Engage even if you think something isn’t a threat or ‘not worth engaging with’

no

RIP you died too soon

I really didn't though, I tunneled lar all day because it's funny and xiz said fuck it i'mma make him useful at the least

I do have to say I think people really need to look into xiz less from a "town / antitown" perspective and read his motives, it makes him way easier to read imho. I only wish this read worked on lar tbh because I pick on him because it's fun but because I have no clue how to read him because his play is super interchangeable like Charu rofl

I'm not gonna claim I knew what he was doing, but you'd have a hard time selling me his intentions weren't good because even c h a o s x i

z

doesn't out like that in d1 rofl

just my two cents on the part of the game I was alive for I guess

[Bolth mannn]

Re: TWG 194 - Postgame

And this is what I mean (:

[Ulleabhara]

Re: TWG 194 - Postgame

Aww, I was hoping I'd get one last chance to try to weasel my way out of the lynch.

gg!

If it's any consolation, here's the thing I would have shared if you'd have won:

ff42 and Shado's POV of this game:
https://ytcropper.com/cropped/MI5eb4d7f602433

---

@Makilaz, continuing the balance discussion from the dead chat: yeah, I don't have much meaningful to say, because the only similar setups I've played where either "deck games" (where a list of possible roles would be posted at game start but we didn't know if there could be multiples or all of them existed), or games based on a point value system for powers, where the two sides are more independent than here. It feels like the phenomenon of certain players being a keystone for either team by virtue of their role is something inherent in this genre of procedurally-generated setups. I'm not sure it's something that can really be "fixed", but you could modify things or create a new setup that makes the fracture points less painful.

---

I will not partake of the salt licks in this thread.

[ShadoWolfe]

Re: TWG 194 - Postgame

No, thats bullshit



He read DBP scum for no reason other then feels scum and couldnt make a solid case that wasn't "I just feel it guys listen to me" and then instead of building worlds with partners or tackling different aspects of the game he fakeclaimed putting the remaining town PR at risk.



Thats not other people playing badly and you know it.

I'm with you. I don't excuse his bad play. I specifically said it was bad play in that same post. I also said that everyone needs to communicate why they think what they think and not just assume ppl should follow them.

But at the same time, the fact that he felt that doing that was the only way he was gonna be heard is a symptom of what I'm talking about, whether you wanna deny it or not.

[ShadoWolfe]

Re: TWG 194 - Postgame

Live footage of town this game:
https://ytcropper.com/cropped/kN5eb508ad9d527

The motorcycle rider was also town this game

[ShadoWolfe]

Re: TWG 194 - Postgame

BTW reading ulle in deadchat being particularly judgy of how I play in her slot was funny, but also something I now never wanna do again

She seems like she'd remind me of it forever if I ever fuck up

[Ulleabhara]

Re: TWG 194 - Postgame

BTW reading ulle in deadchat being particularly judgy of how I play in her slot was funny, but also something I now never wanna do again

She seems like she'd remind me of it forever if I ever fuck up

Oh, pish-posh. I had no business trying to ghost-backseat-drive the slot anyway since I replaced out...it just makes me instinctively cringe whenever I see hints of "town has been rightfully suspicious of LWS all game and/or makes the right call initially but lets paranoia get the best of them and lose it" since I've mostly been in the losing side of that scenario XD

But I understand why that happens – in F3s particularly – and would never hold grudges against anyone for that!