Is it wrong to be gay?

[devonin]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

As we rocket down the path to being moved to TGB, lets at least -try- to keep the conversation on task and appropriate.

[PlayTrumpet]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

As we rocket down the path to being moved to TGB, lets at least -try- to keep the conversation on task and appropriate.

People seemed to just gloss over my post.

Oh well. Pretty sedate thread anyway.

[TheNoSoMan]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

I can't really answer this since it is such a very sensitive issue, but I will state my position.

I am a homophobic and I have a great fear of meeting a trap women. I have my reasons but I will not state them due to their "ignorant" nature. However, it is up to them to do what they feel is best for them and I can't tell them to do what I think is right.

[RubiedCross]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

I'm throwing myself a bone and revisiting this thread for extreme nostalgia (because I'm too lazy to find my old thread I made and read through every single post).

Yes, this is a bump and is reviving a thread that should not (I believe) have been allowed in a critical thinking thread because to "think" is to use "reason". Reasoning requires logic and justifications that should inherently be objective if they are to be discussed (which, in discussing objectivity we'd come to a conclusion much faster than is seen in this thread). Opinions - such as the majority of what I posted over a year ago now - are welcome on this website, but should be limited in a section such as this. Lovers of opinion (i.e. pretty much the entire human race) should find it hard to discuss a topic here, because to discuss logic with anything but logic is just silly. However, it has been discussed and (possibly) will be discussed further, no thanks to my post.

Thus, in answering the title, we should ask what "scale" of "right and wrong" we should use here. If I were to use my own opinion (which I now avoid when discussing anything that requires more than the basic level of thought required to operate in contemporary society), I would base use my own reference of "right and wrong": the Christian Bible. HOWEVER, I will not go any further into that because my faith and reasons for believing the Bible are in progress and are not for me to argue on a level of critical thinking. I've yet to discern the Bible thoroughly enough to truly say I understand it; I would never denounce it though, because of some of the few basic principles that I do believe. Dogma and brainwash, I know, I understand - that is why I'm going to, for my own sake, read and study it further and find the logic and reasoning behind it. I will take from it what I can, as I would expect anyone else who's willing to do so would. Therefore, I will abstain from discussing an answer to this question based on the Bible and some of my old viewpoints from it (A big thanks to Rubix/Fido/Robertsona for arguing with me. You were right, I had no foundation).

How else can we look at this, then? What other scales can we use? Since I believe your target audience is wider than just individuals, we'll broaden it to a country - America. According to "America's 'rights and wrongs'", is it wrong to be gay? Well, I would assume that, in discussing the opinion of a country, you would look at its foundations. We'll take a big leap over discussing a lot of the Bill of Rights and just jump to a conclusion that no, it is not wrong (this could be discussed in an entirely different topic, if you believe differently. For example, the idea that this Bill of Rights was written for the common man, for "everyone who is created equal". It is written for the beast that is society, a beast that is, according to Plato's account of Socrates' thoughts, deaf and dumb and stupid [I have just recently read a segment from the Republic and find Socrates very intriguing and a worthwhile person to study]. Thus, from this, I'd expect the Bill of Rights to be generic, human, and imperfect. I would also expect society to oppose that which rules it half the time, if only because it really can't, as a whole, be capable of reasonable thought. This creates many yes and no answers and really exemplifies how interesting of a discussion this could be logically and with opinions if one so chooses).

Let's look at it scientifically. First of all, science is objective and not opinionated. There is no "right" or "wrong". Biologically, according to evolution, we reproduce with the best, try to extend our genes' lives, etc. Rubix explains a good deal of this very briefly on page 17 on so. Purely biologically and evolutionarily, homosexuality does not benefit ones' genes. However, we are advanced creatures; we have intellectual and emotional capacities that do not limit us to evolutionary goals. That would be delving into psychology and behaviors, though.

Let's look at psychology, then. Freud, for example. According to Freud, ANYTHING to produces bodily pleasure. Therefore, eating is sex. Breathing is sex. Sex is sex. If homosexuality brings you physical pleasure, you're just bringing pleasure to your body. It is your eros, a part of your primitive part of the brain, that controls these. Mind you, this is all part of the "Id", which is basically a subconscious part of your brain that people consider to be an animal-like way of behaving. It is up to your Ego to decide whether these drives are done or not, and your Superego to decide whether or not they are "right" or "wrong". Your Superego is developed by your morals, culture, and society. So, according to Freud, wanting to participate in pleasure is fine; it is YOU who decides whether it is wrong or not (and by you he means your Superego, which is defined by your culture, which refers to many different areas that can't be pinpointed). Basically, we'll say that it's not wrong according to Freudian psychology. Just know that a lot of his ideas aren't widely used by professionals today, only studied, which is why Freud is a common and well-known name. I can't personally get into any other modern psychological analyses of this since I have not studied them and am not fit to discuss it; that's where this sort of thread comes in handy and someone else does it for me, so I don't have to spend time researching it on my own (which I would inevitably do if I was discussing it so that I would not be misinformed).

The answer should be, for the intents and purposes of this thread, no. I should hope there is another thread in here that does discuss "right" and "wrong" (I think I saw one years ago but was more than likely overwhelmed by what was there). That's where you would go to really answer your question, but let's just keep it (fairly) simple for now.

I would recommend to ALL of you, however, that you attempt to find out for yourselves what really "is". Set your opinions aside for a while and try to discern facts, ideas, concepts, etc. Think critically. If you don't enjoy it, maybe it's not for you, and that's not bad. Things like philosophy and "critical thinking" are not meant for everyone. Take a philosophy class if you're really interested in this stuff. Even if it's not for you, you will learn. Don't be put off by ideas if they offend you; think about why they offend you. Learning something new should be a pain (it's kind of like exercising physically - no pain no gain). Again, it's not for everyone, but if you're reading this, then maybe you'd be willing to give it a shot.

That's my two cents. I probably won't be back for another year or so, so I hope you all take care and learn something new each day.

[UnkownMan]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

If it is wrong to be gay, would it be wrong to be straight? After all, being gay is a sexual preference.
INCEPTION.

[leonid]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Is gay straight wrong?

[fido123]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Thanks for that post RubiedCross. Really glad you'be adopted such a great thought philosophy.

[The_Toymaker]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

It's wrong to be gay because it offends me. There ya go. :monkey:

[rushyrulz]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

This is Critical Thinking, not chit chat, Toymaker. If you're not prepared to make a critically thought out post, don't make one at all.

That aside, I will agree with fido that your post was very well-informed and didn't portray tunnel vision or a heavily religious standard, RubiedCross.

[rayword45]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

(Gay rights supporter) I challenge any homophobes here to make a legitimate non-religious argument.

Seriously, I cannot see why gay marriage is still banned in most states. Discrimination at it's most recent.

Also, relevant pic:

[rushyrulz]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

And for those who use the "homosexuality is unnatural" argument:

Gays and lesbians just feel for the same sex the way that they're supposed to feel for the opposite sex. It's not unnatural, and they didn't just wake up one morning and decide they didn't like the opposite sex. Think about it, why would anyone in their right mind choose to be gay? It's a large minority and obviously a not very clear topic as we can see from this 30 page thread.

For everyone arguing that being gay is wrong, you're obviously straight and got the better end of the deal by already having infatuation for the opposite sex programmed into you at birth, so putting aside the excuse of "I don't need to change, I'm normal and I'm not wrong the way I am," imagine if society was flipped around and you had feelings for the opposite sex when 89% of the rest of the world had feelings for the same sex. Would you just change because everyone says it's wrong and you're in a minority? Would you really be willing to get into a relationship with someone of the same sex just because the bible of one religion that hasn't been confirmed nor denied says so? OR would you know that the feeling inside you is completely natural TO YOU and accept that there's, in fact, nothing wrong with your sexual preference?

I feel normal and awkward at the same time, part of the group as well as an outcast. I know that if I follow my heart I will get judged and frowned upon by many people in my lifetime, but it's worth it to be with the person I love, without a care what anyone else thinks of me. It pains me to think of people in this world who are simply unable to see that everything in this world has some type of gray area and there is no such thing as definitive right and definitive wrong. And those same people who are generally super religious who worry for my soul leave me worrying for their souls instead.

So here goes, I'm gay and I'm proud because I know I can follow my heart and I don't need to listen to what a book tells me. If there is a God, I'll listen to the spirit he put inside me at birth instead of listening to the book that was written by man centuries ago.

[fido123]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Also this disproves the whole "it's unnatural" argument: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosex...ior_in_animals

Got my mom off my back~


@rushyrules: I know what you're saying exactly. It sucks that being gay is even a deal at all to people. My friend's at first treated me fairly differently but after a while they'd honestly forget about it and now we have a good time joking about it. There's no excuse to be homophobic, and if you are or think it's 'wrong', I don't care if it's your opinion it's a bad and ignorant one (unless somebody would like to share the first plausable anti-gay point I've heard of). Hopefully society will stop being apeshit retarded some day.

[rayword45]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Popular anti-gay arguments:

It's unnatural/anti-religious: Already defended.

It will cause a slippery slope towards incest and bestial marriages: Gay marriage, unlike incest, shows NO evidence of sprouting handicapped offspring for obvious reasons. And homosexuals are humans. Regardless, there's no evidence of said "slippery slope" theory.

Homosexual marriages cannot produce children: *Points at China/India, then sterile/elderly couple*

Marriage is an institution/religious bonding/tradition between one man and one woman: Who is this defined by as an institution? Why do atheists/people of other/minor religions get married all the time? Isn't slavery a tradition along with public stonings?

Gays want to adopt, and children need a father and a mother: Firstly, MANY children are raised in single-parent homes. And I'm pretty sure having 2 same-sex parents is better then staying in an orphanage for over 18 years. With so many children stuck in adoption centers nowadays, it's a blessing they want to adopt, not a curse.

I must admit, I'm against artificial insemination of lesbian women, for the narrow-minded, selfish thought of hoping they'll instead adopt.

will update with more arguments and shit. Meantime, relevant video (WATCH IT FOOL): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSfFa44p96o

[Reincarnate]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

god how is this thread still going on

no, it's not wrong to be gay

if you disagree, you're a closeminded, bigoted tard with no argument

/thread

[RubiedCross]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

This post has no relevance to topic.

Thank you fido and rushy for complimenting my post. I hope this opens your mind to an idea that perhaps religious people aren't stupid and to introduce some logic to new members. I'm rather disappointed in the other posts though. It's almost ironic how offensive I find these, since I originally the one offending everyone else. That's all I have to say, since just a fragment of what I think could justify this issue has already been posted.