Super Smash Brothers Brawl

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by djshox

Whaaat how can Wario be so far down? He actually has amazing speed for what his strength is; a lot of his attacks are meant to send opponents flying.

This is pretty true, but I would have to agree that Wario isn't that good of a character. Something about him just doesn't seem all that amazing...

As for the tier listing: I would drop Snake down due to his difficulty of effective use, and in addition, I'd limit it a lot... There aren't such clearcut differences in worthiness of the characters. I would only have probably 2 levels: ones that are relatively easy to be good with (Wolf, Diddy, etc.), and characters that are relatively hard to be good with (Donkey Kong, Ganondorf)... Maybe throw in a category for relative neutrals like Mario or Kirby. Certainly no more levels than that... certainly not 5 ****ing levels of bull****.

But seriously, all of the characters can be good in the right hands. Tier listings are just bull**** that do nothing but beget more bull****. People talk about tiers, other people read it, take the same stance, and the small potential discrepancies in balance become exaggerated to the point where no one will play characters that most people consider low tier, even if they can win well with them.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: tiers are stupid; play the character you think is most fun to play as, and regardless of the character you choose, if you're skilled enough, you could beat anyone with it (barring unfair abuse of oversights).

[DarkManticoreX2]

Samus and link are both too low. Sonic Is WAYYYYYY too low. Luigi should be a bit higher. Wario has a weird 8-bit, floaty feel too him.

Snake, Zelda, De-de-de, Diddy kong and zero suit samus are Overestimaed.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by DarkManticoreX2

Samus and link are both too low. Sonic Is WAYYYYYY too low. Luigi should be a bit higher. Wario has a weird 8-bit, floaty feel too him.

Snake, Zelda, De-de-de, Diddy kong and zero suit samus are Overestimaed.

Zelda can be amazing if played correctly, and Diddy is great overall. Not a fan of Zero Suit, so I got nothing to say there, and I already said my peace on Snake.

ps luigi sucks butt nuts

[Shoe The Almighty]

Pit on the top? Oy that's stupid.....I'm glad wolf and meta knight but whoever made that list is stupid.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by Shoe The Almighty

Pit on the top? Oy that's stupid.....I'm glad wolf and meta knight but whoever made that list is stupid.

You're retarded. The only thing with any semblance of logic in what you said was the word "Wolf", and even then you failed to capitalize the proper noun.

Originally Posted by Telvanni_guard

Metaknight's Up+A is pretty damn strong. It's usually the move I do for knock outs. I hear more about his Up+B though.

Isn't his up A a flurry like his neutral A? And yeah, I'm pretty sure that his up B is his only power shot. I think his down B might possibly work, but to be honest, it was so forgettable that I can't even remember how it went down on the rare instances I could successfully land a hit with his down B. Yeah, that's right, I'm pretty bad with Meta Knight.

Personally, I would say that Meta Knight is only truly good for team battles. Or else, you'll need to be very skilled to get any kills in during a 1 on 1 or free for all.

[Shoe The Almighty]

[quote=Afrobean;2112095]You're retarded. The only thing with any semblance of logic in what you said was the word "Wolf", and even then you failed to capitalize the proper noun. QUOTE]

Why are you stressing out about this? If it really bothers you I could correct my retarded sentence so you can sleep well at night knowing that your one of the few people who care about sentence on a brawl topic. Yes that was a run on sentence. It doesn't take a genius to understand what I said.

Back to Brawl, Metaknight is a badass character, but I wish he was a bit stonger with his A attacks.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by Shoe The Almighty

[QUOTE=Afrobean;2112095]You're retarded. The only thing with any semblance of logic in what you said was the word "Wolf", and even then you failed to capitalize the proper noun. QUOTE]

Why are you stressing out about this? If it really bothers you I could correct my retarded sentence so you can sleep well at night knowing that your one of the few people who care about sentence on a brawl topic. Yes that was a run on sentence. It doesn't take a genius to understand what I said.

Back to Brawl, Metaknight is a badass character, but I wish he was a bit stonger with his A attacks.

Holy ****.

My point was that the content of your post was almost wholly retarded, and that fact wasn't helped by the format of it which was entirely retarded.

In other words, Pit is DEFINITELY a good character, Wolf is good too, but Meta Knight lacks one of the most important things for a character to have: the ability to easily deal death blows.

ps good game ****ing up the format on your quote.

[DarkManticoreX2]

I still think putting Samus near the bottom is a mistake, She's got a massive range arsenal (even if it did get slower and weaker), and some pretty powerful smash attacks.

She was downgraded a lot since melee, (basically everything got weaker/shorter/less powerful), but her fire attacks got beefed up and she can still deal damage and send opponents flying. Not to mention she simply doesn't die. Been up to 250% a ton of times in 1v1 matches.

[ducky285]

Samus gets easily out-projectiled by a LOT of characters. Her projectiles are weaker. She has trouble KOing until higher damages. She also has limited mobility and her Bombs don't explode on contact (which helped escape pressure).

Her Z-air (air grapple beam) is really good, though. Good range and no lag on landing. She can still space with her projectiles, but they're much less effective than, say, Pit's arrows, Snake's granades, ROB's laser/gyros etc.

Everything she can do, other characters can do better, which is why she is so low on the list.

This doesn't mean she sucks completely and I hope people are getting that. People get so offended when their character ends up low tier. I mean, I use Yoshi a lot and he's almost bottom tier on that list. And I agree with the rationale so I don't mind. I think I can be effective with him if I put in enough time. It'll just be a lot harder to win with him.

[ducky285]

Originally Posted by Afrobean

stuff about tier lists

First off, the list is based on 1 v 1 competitive play.

Every fighting game has tier list since no game is ever completely balanced. The Street Fighters have one. Guilty Gear has one. Melee has one. It's an inevitability because some characters will just be better at 1 v 1 competitive play than others. As for the five levels thing, I think it's to make the list easier to read and comprehend and it's more aesthetic than anything. Remove the levels and you get a simple ranking list.

That is not to say that bottom tier characters have no shot at winning a tournament. a testament to a game's balance is shown in the relative gap between top tier and bottom tier. Guilty Gear shows Johnny as bottom tier but he is still capable of beasting through a tournament. It just requires a LOT more work and a LOT more mindgaming.

The list based on a few things...

1. Potential
2. Actual success at the tournament level
3. Number of favorable and unfavorable match-ups

Fox and Falco were top tier in Melee because they won a vast majority of tournaments and matched up extremely well against most of the cast. They also had a great level of potential due to a combination of speed, range, power and useful projectiles.


Now I'm not DEFENDING this list at all, but I understand how it came to be based on the current metagame. Like I said, the list I posted is NOT final, official or even 100% correct. The game has been out for a little more than two months (counting the JP release) so building a tier list at this point is a bit much. Melee didn't develop a true list until a few years after it came out and it changed a few times based on changes in the way the metagame developed as players got better and new techniques were discovered. Roy used to be on top until people realized that he was too slow and had no combo potential, thus he was dropped way down the list. Shiek was on top for the longest time until Fox and Falco users started dominating tournies.

Give it about a year and the list should be more accurate. Right now the list is based on mostly theory and the current skill level of competitive players. Keep in mind, also, that the list was compiled by someone in a greater fighting game community as opposed to the dedicated Smash community. I would trust an SWF list over one off SRK, personally.

Also, did ANYONE read the thread I posted where they explain why each character is where they are. It makes sense to me. >_>

Since people are asking, I'll explain to the best of my knowledge why certain characters are where they are....

Snake is top because he can camp all day and his close-range moves have insane power and priority. His f-tilt, b-air, u-air, d-tilt, u-tilt and n-air are all quick and do serious damage. His arms are legs are disjointed hitboxes for some unknown reason, adding to his priority.

Pit, Falco, Toon Link, ROB and Zelda are also amazingly good at camping as well. Notice that all these characters are near the top. This is because Brawl tournies lately are being won by whoever can camp the best.

Pit, in particular, can arrow spam then use his high priority close range attacks to punish anyone who tries to approach. He also has insane recovery and TWO reflectors.

Wario is lower because he lacks range and gets murdered by sword users. Too many bad matchups.

Olimar is up top because of his range, priority and ability to cause a LOT of damage in a short amount of time. The only thing keeping him from being WAY up is his recovery.

Meta Knight has issues with KOing but he still has some decent moves. D-smash works. F-smash works. Shuttle Loop works. He still has to get the enemy to high percentages but he can build damage really quickly. He can also get past campers because he's REALLY good at approaching with just about any move you can think of. his recovery is also amazing and he can use any of his B-moves for that purpose. Plus he can glide twice in midair.

Toon Link is considered better than Link because he's faster and has quicker projectiles. His arrows act a bit like Falco's laser. Link is sluggish and his arrows aren't as useful. Toon Link also has a SICK air game with b-air and f-air.

Zelda can camp easily and can KO reliably with a LOT of moves.

Luigi is like Mario except with a lot of KO moves, amazing recovery and a great approach move.

Diddy is quick and can do a lot of stuff with them nanners of his.

ZSS is quick and has amazing range on normal moves and her Plasma Whip.

Dedede has crazy grab range, a chaingrab, balanced offense (quick weak moves with range coupled with slower power moves), a useful and potentially devastating projectile and insane recovery. His only issues are being big and slow.

And that's the most I've said about Brawl ever. Anyone else need some clarification?

[x After Dawn x]

Originally Posted by Afrobean

Maybe throw in a category for relative neutrals like Mario or Kirby. Certainly no more levels than that... certainly not 5 ****ing levels of bull****.

I agree...Brawl is so much more balanced than Melee that it only needs about 3-4 tiers. Really, if you get beaten by someone else, it's not because the character that your opponent chose was that much better than the character you chose, but actually that your opponent was better than you or he/ she utilized his/ her character more efficiently and better than you.

Oh, and when I say "you", I'm not talking about you specifically, I'm just talking about gamers in general.

Originally Posted by Shoe The Almighty

Again, why are you stressing out over my sentence? Just move on.

I don't see Pit a good character for two reasons:
1) I haven't played person GOOD with Pit, both online and off
2) He seems like a weaker and taller version of MetaKnight

Until I actually play a good person that uses Pit, that's my opinion, but hey, he's a hell of a lot better than Olimar.

The tier list was off 1 V 1? It should be based on both multiplayer AND 1 V 1. It might make the list more balanced....but then again some people are better on one vs. one than on multiplayer.

You really don't have any idea what you're talking about, do you? Smash Bros. isn't about racking up damage and then throwing your opponent like it was in the original. Smash Bros. is about trying to get your opponent off the edge, and then guarding that edge so that they can't get back down. Meta Knight can sit there and chop his sword through the air as much as it wants, but no matter how much you do it, it's not getting your opponent off the edge. What Meta Knight lacks is what Pit has.

As for your opinion that tier lists should be based on multiplayer and 1-vs.-1, it doesn't matter. Either way, Pit has insane recovery and smash attacks that make him a better character in multiplayer battles if you know how to use him right, and tier lists are based on that assumption.