Grammar & Spelling - Is it important? Read post first

[lord_carbo]

Re: Grammar & Spelling - Is it important? Read post first

Recently I read a post on a forum which started with, "[he] seems to have thought that i was supporting his position is that the healthcare system ISNT meant to do a profit.. because its government run." He completely intertwined the relative clause with the next sentence, thus his message was completely construed. What truly made it confusing was the fact that the original poster was in defense of private health care. I didn't know how to respond except to criticize his grammar.

Grammar is important, especially at such a basic level.

I disagree with the idea of that being a normal evolutionary process. If everyone online were to completely ignore grammar and spelling, I think it would be foolish to think those habits would not carry into other domains as well.

Good writing ability and vocabulary comes from practice. If, as children, one is never introduced to proper grammar, it is entirely plausible that they will not learn until it is too late, meaning college or even into the working world, which can be disastrous, especially concerning resumés and the like.

Uh, that's how it's an evolutionary process. Read some old literature. William Shakespeare, the King James Bible, Jonathan Edwards, even anything as recent as Charles Dickens. You'll see a more prevalent use of the subjunctive mood, a concept often under-looked in modern English classes. I perpetuate its use, lest it die out completely. "Thou," "thy," stuff like that, too. And it's just different. I do not know how I would go about explaining the difference. We just know it to exist.

Old English's distinctions from other Germanic languages comes from the evolution of language. Have you learned reflexive verbs in Spanish or German? Noun gender? That too (and thank goodness).

[Verruckter]

Re: Grammar & Spelling - Is it important? Read post first

Recently I read a post on a forum which started with, "[he] seems to have thought that i was supporting his position is that the healthcare system ISNT meant to do a profit.. because its government run." He completely intertwined the relative clause with the next sentence, thus his message was completely construed. What truly made it confusing was the fact that the original poster was in defense of private health care. I didn't know how to respond except to criticize his grammar.

Grammar is important, especially at such a basic level.

That's not grammar, it's syntax. Grammar is spelling and conjugating, while syntax is the order of the words in their context, punctuation, etc.

Also, I think English is one of the only indo-european languages that doesn't have reflexive verbs and noun genders. Not too sure where that comes from, though.

[devonin]

Re: Grammar & Spelling - Is it important? Read post first

I'm always amused to see the argument regarding the evolution of language come up, because it always has false dilemma written all over it.

Generally you'll see something like this: "Languages evolve and change, we can see that by looking at the history of english. Internet-style slang is becoming more prevalent, so we have to -choose- between "Letting the language evolve" or "Resisting the evolution""

The attitude that kind of thought process shows is one that says there can only be one path of linguistic evolution, and so we either have to go with it, or discard it staying where we are, and doesn't allow for the fact that multiple changes can happen in tandem, and we can accept some and reject others.

People coin phrases all the time, some catch on, some don't catch on. This is just the normal course of any evolutionary process. Unfortunately, one of the changes seeing widespread use is the discarding of existing rules primarily of spelling and grammar, in favour of textually efficient speech. The -quicker- you can communicate, the better.

In its own way, internet slang is actually fairly similar to things like older forms of Hebrew, where while still leaving enough letters to decode the meaning, you've done away with vowels entirely, shortening words considerably. Just...unlike hebrew, they haven't also included the use of things like vowel marks to facilitate pronunciation.

Half the reason English is such a complex language to learn is that we've done away with a number of the guiding grammatical and linguistic concepts that other languages have, which make mastery of the language more forumlaic and studied. So in its own way, English is actually a sort of text-speak version of the romance languages.

[MixMasterLar]

Re: Grammar & Spelling - Is it important? Read post first

Grammar is important, but I'm not really one to talk since I'm known for breaking grammar rules, typos, and misspellings all the time =)

Also, anyone else remember Laharl's Grammer thread?

EDIT: Also I agree with Dev

[lord_carbo]

Re: Grammar & Spelling - Is it important? Read post first

That's not grammar, it's syntax. Grammar is spelling and conjugating, while syntax is the order of the words in their context, punctuation, etc.

Also, I think English is one of the only indo-european languages that doesn't have reflexive verbs and noun genders. Not too sure where that comes from, though.

Grammar encompasses syntax. But don't take my word for it. Insert your fingers into the pages of the nearest dictionary, the nearest English book, or the nearest Wikipedia to where you sit, and search yourself.

[Verruckter]

Re: Grammar & Spelling - Is it important? Read post first

I'm always amused to see the argument regarding the evolution of language come up, because it always has false dilemma written all over it.

Generally you'll see something like this: "Languages evolve and change, we can see that by looking at the history of english. Internet-style slang is becoming more prevalent, so we have to -choose- between "Letting the language evolve" or "Resisting the evolution""

The attitude that kind of thought process shows is one that says there can only be one path of linguistic evolution, and so we either have to go with it, or discard it staying where we are, and doesn't allow for the fact that multiple changes can happen in tandem, and we can accept some and reject others.

People coin phrases all the time, some catch on, some don't catch on. This is just the normal course of any evolutionary process. Unfortunately, one of the changes seeing widespread use is the discarding of existing rules primarily of spelling and grammar, in favour of textually efficient speech. The -quicker- you can communicate, the better.

In its own way, internet slang is actually fairly similar to things like older forms of Hebrew, where while still leaving enough letters to decode the meaning, you've done away with vowels entirely, shortening words considerably. Just...unlike hebrew, they haven't also included the use of things like vowel marks to facilitate pronunciation.

Half the reason English is such a complex language to learn is that we've done away with a number of the guiding grammatical and linguistic concepts that other languages have, which make mastery of the language more forumlaic and studied. So in its own way, English is actually a sort of text-speak version of the romance languages.

I don't see how there could be two paths of evolution, at least not in the context. Generally, a language evolves differently than another with which it has a common ancestor because it is somewhat cut off from that specific other language. For example, german evolved so differently than english because the latter was spoken on an island, rather than on the rest of the soon-to-be Europe.

In the case of "Good english" versus "Internet slang", both are in the same environments. They both are spread equally around the world (for the newer generations, at least) and concern as many people, mostly native speakers, as second language english speakers usually care more about syntax and grammar than native speakers (although I have no source to confirm this). In other words, both different languages cohabit and are exposed to the same conditions.

Grammar encompasses syntax. But don't take my word for it. Insert your fingers into the pages of the nearest dictionary, the nearest English book, or the nearest Wikipedia to where you sit, and search yourself.

You're right, my bad.

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Grammar & Spelling - Is it important? Read post first

I'm always amused to see the argument regarding the evolution of language come up, because it always has false dilemma written all over it.

Generally you'll see something like this: "Languages evolve and change, we can see that by looking at the history of english. Internet-style slang is becoming more prevalent, so we have to -choose- between "Letting the language evolve" or "Resisting the evolution""

The attitude that kind of thought process shows is one that says there can only be one path of linguistic evolution, and so we either have to go with it, or discard it staying where we are, and doesn't allow for the fact that multiple changes can happen in tandem, and we can accept some and reject others.

Well, clearly there's no actual dilemma in the pure sense of the word, but for the vast majority of the cases the response is so polarized. The prescriptivist and descriptivist titles are ascribed to people who already lean those directions.

Now, the dilemma here is wether or not to let the language follow it's evolutive course, i.e. let internet slang take over and simplify everything to eventually become it's own dialect, a process which is absolutely normal in the evolution of a language, or make strict rules about preserving the actual language and not let it change, thus stopping the evolutive process, but keeping a decency and general comprehension.

If we let some languages follow to their own devices, we get abominations like Singlish, which serve little purpose past completely embarassing the countries in which it is spoken.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Verruckter]

Re: Grammar & Spelling - Is it important? Read post first

If we let some languages follow to their own devices, we get abominations like Singlish, which serve little purpose past completely embarassing the countries in which it is spoken.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

I agree, but at the same time, it was bound to happen... One in many.

[Snowcrafta]

Re: Grammar & Spelling - Is it important? Read post first

grammar is only used to show formality on the internet

[lord_carbo]

Re: Grammar & Spelling - Is it important? Read post first

If we let some languages follow to their own devices, we get abominations like Singlish, which serve little purpose past completely embarassing the countries in which it is spoken.

Hahahaha.

PS Guido holy **** did you actually misspell "embarrassing" in a grammar thread? Holy **** holy **** holy **** brb reading Revelations.

[Squeek]

Re: Grammar & Spelling - Is it important? Read post first

oh no people spell things wrong from time to time

it is the end of the world

‾\(º_o)/‾

[tsugomaru]

Re: Grammar & Spelling - Is it important? Read post first

Guildo, you have to keep in mind about who you are communicating with. If you are trying to appeal to a large range of people, perhaps proper grammar is the best way to communicate, and even so, you have to keep in mind about who's your audience.

Broken English can be just as effective as a communicating tool. It definitely can't be used in the same way as proper English, but it can still be used for communicating. A lot of people in my neighborhood come from foreign countries and have been here for more years than I have lived, yet, they always speak in broken English. Although they most definitely give an outward appearance of having an IQ lower than a grapefruit, they are still skilled in their area of expertise, there is no argument about that. Then again, this is just one world, their work world, and I don't see them in this world often, instead, I see them in the their family world when I visit my friends. My friends can speak with proper grammar, yet, when they talk their parents, they choose to speak with broken English and I have a feeling that the message that's passing between them is better conveyed than if my friend decided to speak in proper English, which they (the parent) would not have understood.

EDIT: Just to clarify, not all words have the same connotations for every person. A certain word, such as friend, may hold a different meaning depending on the person. Speaking in broken English serves as a mean to clarify the meanings of the words between two people, in this case, the parent and the child. That's what I mean when I said that the parent "would not have understood."

~Tsugomaru

[Tokzic]

Re: Grammar & Spelling - Is it important? Read post first

my posting style does not make use of capitalization or closing punctuation and often includes run-on sentences oh no what if people think this post is a question or that i am saying the second sentence in the negative after an interjection of "oh"

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