TWG CLXX Anything but Nekopara Game Thread

[blindreper1179]

Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx

There's no damn way 3 town voted Charu after that I mean srsly that'd be the most retarded lynch, and with what he'd contributed at eod.

Blind if you read me scum, pick at least 1 between DBP/Gradient/Roundbox

You said Gradient is town to you. So either DBP or Roundbox

roundbox is my top scum, how is this not known to you?

[xXOpkillerXx]

Originally Posted by blindreper1179

roundbox is my top scum, how is this not known to you?

Yeah I'm heavily anticipating the DBP/Roundbox shit is all.

[FreezinIce]

So first we have DBP's initial statement

>I can't make the Detective's Proclamation

While I have never read the manga or played any of the Umineko games, I am cognizent of their existance. And since both roundbox and dbp have been referencing
it all game, it wasnt hard to make that connection.

A google search did me little favors, bringing up that same phrase but littered in all sorts of different contexts.

Here's where i had to make my first leap of faith, [Detective's Proclamation is actually just different phrasing for Detective's Authority]

Now I had to figure out wtf that was.

I watched an appropriately named let's play featuring the detective herself, Erika Furudo. This helped me color my understanding of the phrase from the wiki, namely:

You pretty much play the sterotypical role of a Detective from a movie or other work of fiction. It is understood implicitly that the detective must have access to every clue needed to solve the crime, and any clue not made apparent to the detective (and the reader) must not be relevant to the crime.

It's also my understanding that when invoking this authority, the Detective needs to abide by certain rules that largely govern golden age detective fiction. Tropes if you will.

There are 2 sets of rules that i came across, Van Dine's and Knox's. These rules also have significant relevance in the Umineko story as a whole since it is at heart a detective fiction.

Some of these rules have very little relevance to the current sitation. Van Dine's 12th states there can only be a single culprit, which obviously has no relevance. Van Dine's 13th rule states that Mafia's have no place in a detective story. Lel.

But 2 rules seemed to correlate with each other and were probably what DBP was thinking of. The first rule was Van Dine's first rule, which is referrenced in the wiki entry for Detective's Authority and something i already mentioned:

"The reader must have equal opportunity with the detective for solving the mystery. All clues must be plainly stated and described." (Credit to the wiki page)

There is a second rule that seems like a sort of addenum to the current situation. That is Van Dine's 15th rule:

"The truth of the problem must at all times be apparent — provided the reader is shrewd enough to see it. By this I mean that if the reader, after learning the explanation for the crime, should reread the book, he would see that the solution had, in a sense, been staring him in the face-that all the clues really pointed to the culprit — and that, if he had been as clever as the detective, he could have solved the mystery himself without going on to the final chapter. That the clever reader does often thus solve the problem goes without saying." (Credit again to the wiki page)

So what does it mean? It means that the solution isnt immediately apparent. That all the clues are not availible. That the outside observer, no matter how clever, could not arrive at the truth of the situation.

In respect to the game we're playing now, this obviously references blue roles, as they are the only source of outside-the-game information on the town side that is not immediately apparent. Town and mafia roles are also the only thing that people cannot be sure of with 100% certainty UNLESS THERE IS A LOGICAL CONTRADICTION THAT PRESENTS THE TRUTH BY VIRTUE OF AN IMPOSSIBLE SITUATION.

It's been a long and winding road, and im not even sure this was what DBP was exactly was thinking of anymore, having probably next to no knowledge of umineko other than what ive immediately aquired.

But in the context of the game i'm sure this is roughly what he was going for.

I believe DBP is going to introduce a logical impossiblity that will make the truth of the situation apparent.

In plain words, I think he is a blue role and is going to claim against blind, the only role who's existance is not an absolute certainity. Thus presenting truth in the fact that someone between them is a wolf.

[FreezinIce]

sorry that took so long to type even for a summary that was longer than i was going for

[FreezinIce]

he said later that he has 2 wolves for certain though. Which points to him being an investigative role. Forgot to add that in

[Gradiant]

Originally Posted by sanzath

I'll go for what my gut's telling me to do, I guess

charu

Originally Posted by Gradiant

Even if it's gut, you should have some bit of reasoning. unless you've already given it and i missed? if you have, refresher?

Originally Posted by roundbox

is it just your gut or do you think he's scum

we can't fuck up this lynch

Originally Posted by roundbox

PogChamp

1st mention of pocket/mindmeld from rb

Originally Posted by sanzath

And if roundbox is secretly pocketing me it's fucking working

Originally Posted by roundbox

this is really towny LOL

Looks gross to me. For how rb was saying we could not fuck up this lynch and then saying something like that was really towny.

Originally Posted by Gradiant

Think i want to leave manti alone as well. Want to vote blind and charu equally now.

Originally Posted by roundbox

same dude
if you're pocketing me (I had a suspicion when you said "I'm okay with this" on my d0 blind vote) I'm gonna be sad

2nd instance of mention of pocket/mindmeld when he had already said we shouldn't lynch manti, there was no reason to repeat and go 'same dude'. Not liking that from rb

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by FreezinIce

sorry that took so long to type even for a summary that was longer than i was going for

I'm actually quite impressed that you were able to reason this much, very good, very good

You're on the right track, but let me explain what the "Detective's Proclamation" means in this context

The Detective has the ability to perform a number of functions in the Umineko world --- inspect corpses, collect all necessary evidence, etc.

The Detective, at the beginning of each game, makes the claim that they are indeed taking the role of Detective. This grants them a number of unique, special abilities, but prevents exactly one set of actions.

According to the Knox Decalogue of Detective Fiction:

The detective himself, or one of the official investigators, should never turn out to be the culprit.

Meaning --- that if somebody has committed murder in the game, they cannot be the Detective.

[FreezinIce]

As for roundbox's reply, I pretty much roughly knew of that concept already having played a lot of chess when I was in middle and high school. A quick google search confirmed my thoughts.

His statement of "turning around the chessboard" is just slang for putting yourself in you opponents shoes to try to figure out why they would do things that make no sense to you.

I think its safe to say that he understood DBP's meaning with his message and was replying that once the mechanically outed wolves are dead, town can get to work on finding the last wolf thats hiding

[DaBackpack]

In retrospect, lynching Charu turned out to be the best mislynch available for us, since it allowed us to lock down the setup.

The setup is DD CC VV T, just as blind says.

Also meaning that there cannot be two vigilantes.

[DaBackpack]

Unfortunately, the Doctor protected the "wrong person", meaning that there wasn't a vigi kill on a wolf in the night.

Which is fine, because it was probably the safest option, but I was hoping that the Doctor would realize what was actually happening and would have not saved who he saved.

[FreezinIce]

oh

[FreezinIce]

close, but no cigar i guess

[DaBackpack]

I believe we are in LYLO, meaning that the wolves need only one mislynch in order to win the game, barring some Doctor/Vigi shenanigans.

I find it highly unlikely that a wolf would push for his own partner to be lynched in what could potentially be the final phase of the game.

Meaning, that roundbox is almost certainly not a wolf here. Also meaning that I could soft to him, which would give him something to think about even if he couldn't physically be present in the thread.

[FreezinIce]

So because you killed like Erika in that one umineko work that i forget the name of, you couldnt claim detective.

its amazing, i actually read that rule AND that instance, but didnt make the connection and passed it up

[DaBackpack]

Of course, it doesn't really even matter anyway, since I'm explaining this anyway.

blind is not the vigilante.

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by FreezinIce

So because you killed like Erika in that one umineko work that i forget the name of, you couldnt claim detective.

its amazing, i actually read that rule AND that instance, but didnt make the connection and passed it up

exactly

[FreezinIce]

LOL @ that doctor save.

..........why

[DaBackpack]

I thought I would take this phase to mess around with blind and see if he could cough up some more information that would help us succeed in subsequent phases after his lynch.

In particular, ---- who was blind gunning for in LYLO, and who would support him and also gun for that target.

This is just conjecture at this point, but a few people have fit that bill. In particular, I have OpKiller as the most likely second wolf here.

[Gradiant]

Softing in that way is really genius, though kinda ballsy since only one person would be able to tell. Works out here though

[DaBackpack]

I realized that in the last ~30 minutes of the phase yesterday, that I was the most widely town-read person in the game, which is bad for me because obviously I don't want to be nightkilled. So at that time, I started spewing some bullshit about how I had roundbox as "lock clear" after having a cryptic conversation with him.

I was -hoping- that the wolves would notice that I was trying to expose roundbox as a PR and would attempt to kill him in the night instead of me.

I was still unsure about roundbox at the time --- he was a ??? for me. So having him die in the night after confirming that he wasn't a PR would make the game easier for me.

However, Charu flipped Cop, and my hate-boner began. I knew blind was going to be lynched this phase, but still, if roundbox could be nightkilled, that would make my life easier.

Unfortunately, the wolves did not notice my softs, and killed Manti instead.

Luckily, blind started gunning for roundbox almost immediately, which clears up roundbox in my mind.