Averages = Lifebar penalty

[Arch0wl]

Keep averages the same scorewise, but give them a lifebar penalty similar to boos or misses.

Reason: FFR is way too easy to mash.

This would keep scores the way they are, but would at the very least make passes mean something.

[Sorie]

The idea is interesting, but since the game now works with raw scoring, I think the goal is already met in a way? I mean this as "discouraging players to mash".

The other problem is that some tokens would become impossible to unlock doing so e.g: OMGWTFT0k3n.

I would be more tempted to not change averages, but to give a higher penalty to boos. That's not possible either because of the above.

That leaves one thing to think about, is there another way to create a penalty?

[Arch0wl]

which matters more: OMGWTFT0k3n, or a sensible passing system?

I'd say the latter.

if this absolutely must be retained, add in a Pro Pass mode which penalizes averages and penalizes boos harder and have Pro Pass as a distinction we can get along with "FC", "AAA" and so on

[AragakiAyase]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

if this absolutely must be retained, add in a Pro Pass mode which penalizes averages and penalizes boos harder and have Pro Pass as a distinction we can get along with "FC", "AAA" and so on

So basically... Hard Rock from Osu?

[Arch0wl]

Originally Posted by AragakiAyase

So basically... Hard Rock from Osu?

if you want to go there, hard clear from IIDX.

[XelNya]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

which matters more: OMGWTFT0k3n, or a sensible passing system?

I'm sold.

Do it plz.

[Sorie]

That's an excellent idea worth experimenting. It would finally give back some value to the lifebar which become obsolete on harder songs as you can just mash through everything. The new problem with this is that mashers will just not use the "Pro Pass mode" and play normally? Why would someone want to use the "Pro Pass mode" ? What's the insensitive?

[Arch0wl]

Originally Posted by Sorie

The new problem with this is that mashers will just not use the "Pro Pass mode" and play normally? Why would someone want to use the "Pro Pass mode" ? What's the insensitive?

I feel like this would become a thing among experienced players -- newbies would not use pro pass, while experienced players would, since this would show you've passed the song in a meaningful way and not just bullshitted your way through it

[_Zenith_]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

I feel like this would become a thing among experienced players -- newbies would not use pro pass, while experienced players would, since this would show you've passed the song in a meaningful way and not just bullshitted your way through it

While having a Pro Pass system would get older more experienced Vets back into playing FFR with a purpose, when you reach that high of skill, you tend to bullshit your way through patterns regardless.

[Arch0wl]

Originally Posted by _Zenith_

when you reach that high of skill, you tend to bullshit your way through patterns regardless.

well, no, not regardless. something in the game is allowing someone to bullshit patterns.

it is difficult (though possible, but not common) to bullshit patterns on beatmania iidx, but it is very possible to bullshit patterns on stepmania judge 4, and even more so on ffr with penalty-free averages.

bullshittability is determined by the game's penalizations, period.

[_Zenith_]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

well, no, not regardless. something in the game is allowing someone to bullshit patterns.

it is difficult (though possible, but not common) to bullshit patterns on beatmania iidx, but it is very possible to bullshit patterns on stepmania judge 4, and even more so on ffr with penalty-free averages.

bullshittability is determined by the game's penalizations, period.

You are strictly fixated on averages and not considering the life points of misses or boos. If you are mashing a song, the only reason why you are still surviving is because ALL of the anti timings do not outweigh in negative life point gain than what Perfects give in terms of life points.

Also, you can easily manipulate patterns and it isn't because of averages whatsoever. It is because of how lax the timing windows are, for example, jumptrilling a 1 to 4 stream. We can jumptrill it because you can manipulate the window to give you perfects when you are technically off by x millisecond on the window.

[Trumpet63]

So, why not also penalize first-frame goods as well, aren't they equivalent?

If I'm not crazy, this is the current arrangement of the seven frames of hit timing:

Good
Good
Perfect
Amazing
Perfect
Good
Average

[andy-o24]

Unless there was something you got from pro pass mode, a AAA means the same thing. It would maybe add a new dimension to anti-skill competition, but isn't the goal usually to get all perfects and no averages anyway? Low tier players could use this as bragging rights but it has no real effect for higher tier players.

-o24

[Arch0wl]

Originally Posted by andy-o24

Low tier players could use this as bragging rights but it has no real effect for higher tier players

yes, that is who it is for. low- and mid-tier players for the most part, and high-tier players on songs rated 90+.

[emulord]

I like it. I feel like FCs lost some meaning from Raw scoring, so having more intermediate goals for songs is a good thing.

[Rapta]

I like the way averages are at the moment.

[PhantomPuppy]

yea now that i think about it, there really isn't much in the game that destroys lifebars. a D2 player can pass death piano if they really felt like it. i like the idea that it maintains the same score given, since that would mess up a lot of things if it didnt give the same score, but at the same time it would make the game more challenging and interesting for casuals and competitive players alike if it gave a lifebar penalty.

[SKG_Scintill]

Get 200+ averages on "Zodiac" to unlock Exotica.

[PhantomPuppy]

@everyone that's talking about unlocking tokens being a problem... just have different requirements? and people that already have the token unlocked don't have to do it again?

edit: not trying to sound like an ass, just a solution to the problems you're stating.

[rushyrulz]

Originally Posted by PhantomPuppy

@everyone that's talking about unlocking tokens being a problem... just have different requirements? and people that already have the token unlocked don't have to do it again?

edit: not trying to sound like an ass, just a solution to the problems you're stating.

Pretty sure we're going to be putting a lot of thought into changing up some token requirements, mainly for normal tokens, and possibly some skill tokens in the nearish future. The fact that life-depleting averages would ruin some token requirements is a total non-issue.

As for the idea of life-depleting averages, sure I think it's a good idea. At least make them be neutral like they were in the past, because currently they add to your life bar in R^3.