Real

[FictionJunction]

MCR says:
sorry can't help you
FictionJunction says:
when all hope is lost....
FictionJunction says:
........
FictionJunction says:
CT THREAD!

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I am sure we all are aware that we here at FFR have some of the brightest, wise, and most knowledgeable thinkers of the internet. I come to you all with a question that may shatter your perceptions of reality.
I need to find equal characteristics between our world [the 'real' world] and Middle-earth. Now this may seem to be a tad childish for some of you, but it is indeed mind-boggling.
If the people of Middle-earth were to take a stand on this matter they would probably say that their world is more real than ours, for they exist in it. I believe that this alone makes both worlds, to some extent, real.
However, every fictional universe's characters, whom are created by an author or idealist, would think in such a manner. I'm looking for a connection between our world and middle-earth; a connection that is only established between both of these worlds and not other lands from different stories such as Eragon, Star Wars, etc. This connection must be unique to middle-earth and our world.
Even if you haven't read any of Tolkien's work, your perxception of reality may serve my purpose well. Your opinions on the matter are valuable to this research.

This is all the information that I can provide as to what is real (please work under this circumstance):
Something real =/= something that exists.

[studmuffin51306]

This is a good idea.
Lord of the Rings is one of the few books where things happen on a massive scale, and there is always something important happening all over Middle Earth. By not simply focusing on one protagonist, Tolkien makes the world much more realistic in that everyone participates.
Unfortunately, for our world to be exactly the same in this way, everything anyone did would have to effect one person's struggle to save the world, and that just isn't how it happens here.

[FictionJunction]

This is what I wrote after thinking about this for a while:
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Tolkien creates a world so rich and detailed it becomes a reality which the reader can enter and exit at will. It is not merely another fantasized version of our world, it is an entirely pure, unadulterated universe detached from ours; this is due to the amount of care put into its creation. History, cartography, linguistics, and most importantly, philology, among other studies, were used in the creation of Middle-earth. This world isn’t merely a setting for one plot, but many; Races and cultures aren’t only mentioned, but play an important role in the creation of the land itself, and, as any culture would, have developed their own languages. Tolkien explains in a letter written to Naomi Mitchinson, a proof-reader of The Lord of the Rings, the different roots of the wide array of languages Middle-earth possesses (pg 174, 175). All languages Tolkien created play an utmost role in Middle-earth; they are the foundations of the cultures depicted in his work. These languages further the reader’s experience as the connections between the languages and cultures in Middle-earth may be associated to the manner our languages and cultures function, thus making Middle-earth a seemingly real world that is able to sustain itself.

Edit: I'll check for errors some other time, but this is the main idea.. I suppose.

[i_like_ham]

well some people think that the middle world could have been an alteration o what could have happened in our past. Like a time between the ancient times and the dark ages. Also "middle earth" is a fictional world but essentially it was created based on our world. also what exactly is your question??

[FictionJunction]

Reality is perception. I know that. You're no help.

[Reach]

If the people of Middle-earth

I don't quite see how this can logically hold. There are no 'people' of middle earth. They have no physical representation as they are a figment of Tolkiens mind.

To say that they are real is why this sort of perpetual, protracted seige on what is real and what is not continues. To say that invisible faries could exist simply opens a door that should not be opened; it's a logical fallacy. It's always a more logical argument to assume that something you can provide no evidence for is not true, and this case is a good example.

unadulterated universe detached from ours

He certainly hasn't created any universes here. We give words definitions for a reason. You cannot logically put forth the idea that somehow middle earth is some fabricated universe. You just can't. You can say that it is some altered perception of reality, because it is, as what we picture middle earth to be is only our brains putting information together.



So really, the only connection between middle earth and your perception of reality is inside of your mind. They are connected in that both are fabrications of your mind. What you perceive around you and what you picture in your mind are both simply your brain putting information together around you. However, a critical difference between these two 'realities' is that on has physical representation and the other does not; only a mental representation. I wouldn't consider it real, just a mental fabrication.

[aperson]

You need to take a Modal Logic class.

I'm going to just abbreviate b for box A and d for diamond A since modal operands aren't in the standard character set.

Edit: This might be a bit complicated if you don't know modal logic so let me explain a bit.

In modal logic, there is a set of worlds W which contains all the individual worlds {w_0, w_1 ... w_n} and an interpretation I for which expressions can be evaluated. An Interpretation specifies the Universal Domain (the Universal Domain is the collection of all objects discussed. i.e. If we're doing 1st grade arithmetic the universal domain is the positive integers), and an assignment to all elements in the UD (so if the UD is the pos. ints, then you can say a = 1 b = 2 c = 3 d = 4 ... a' = 27 etc...). In modal logic, sentences are evaluated for each world in the U.D. so if W is {1,2}, a sentence could be T at {1} and F at {2}.

If a sentence X is T in at least one world, then you can say dX (diamond X). This means that it is possible that X. (in some world, X is T). if X is T in no worlds we denote it with the empty set. If X is T in all worlds it is a logical truth, we denote this by saying bX (box X). This means that it is necessary that X.

Now:
Something real =/= something that exists.

Let A be the claim that middle earth is real
Let B be the claim that earth is real
Let C be the claim that middle earth is false
Let D be the claim that earth is false

If A is true in an interpretation I in some world w, Then D is true in I in w. Similarly, if B is true in interpretation I in some world w', then C is true in I in w'. However, the only claim we can make about B in w is that dB, and that A in w' is dA.

Therefore, in w, A is T and dB is T. In w', B is T and dA is T. However, since in our world w' we know that B is F, then there must be some other world (w) where B is T. Likewise for the middle earth perspective.

This, then, means that in our world w', we are aware that bB is not T. Therefore, since we know we are not T in all worlds {w,w'} in I, we state that we are not necessarily real because there exists some world w where B is false..

[tsugomaru]

Originally Posted by Reach

I don't quite see how this can logically hold. There are no 'people' of middle earth. They have no physical representation as they are a figment of Tolkiens mind.

I don't like this idea that a world like Middle Earth can exist as they are, as you say, figments of our imagination, a hope that the world may somewhat be like this to escape the realities we wish to not face.

However, I'm going to be on Fiction's side on this one as who are we to say that we are not the imaginations of another's mind?

~TSugomaru

[FictionJunction]

Originally Posted by tsugomaru

However, I'm going to be on Fiction's side on this one as who are we to say that we are not the imaginations of another's mind?

That's not exactly what I tried to say, though >>'

A character in a book is real even though it doesn't exist in any physical form. When asked if a character is real or not, I would say 'Yes, you see him do such actions here, and make such decisions there; he is human, like us.' The extent to which a character could be real, however, depends on how well of a job its creator does at making him. I'm merely trying to apply that concept to a fictional universe.

It is normal for us to define if something is real or not through comparaison; we believe that what we see, hear, feel, touch, etc etc etc, in our is real. If something written, created, or depicted meets the standards the things around us have already met, it may be defined as something real even though it doesn't exist.

[FictionJunction]

Anyway, the topic kind of died. However, I finished writing my essay on the theme and I have uploaded it to the following url:

http://www.edubardus.org/LiM-E.pdf

This is the copy I gave my professor, so you're actually reading what I'll be graded on. I could posisbly expand more and correct some mistakes here and there.
Feedback is greatly appreciated