Discuss the meaning of this quote

[talisman]

RE: Re: RE: Discuss the meaning of this quote

...which isn't what afro said at all.

[Afrobean]

RE: Re: RE: Discuss the meaning of this quote

Well, I assumed that the fighting between self and monsters would be comperable since it says the fighting would make "ye" become a monster.

I guess it's not always safe to assume things, but in cases of interpretations, assumptions are pretty much needed.

[Specforces]

RE: Re: RE: Discuss the meaning of this quote

well, the fight fire with fire part was part of it.

[Afrobean]

Re: RE: Re: RE: Discuss the meaning of this quote

Beware fighting evil, for down the path of its destruction you will also inherit some of this evil, for the only true way to beat evil is use evil yourself.

That is the hidden message of Star Wars.

Seriously, go watch Star wars and point out one light saber fight where the good guys didn't win because of use of the dark side (anakin v. obi-wan doesn't count simply because obi-wan is too cool).

PS Talisman, that is pretty much what I meant. I must not have verbalized it well enough.

[talisman]

RE: Re: RE: Discuss the meaning of this quote

not really, nowhere does he make it explicit or implicit that you must battle the monsters as the monsters may or may not battle you, should you choose to do battle with them.

The argument he's making isn't about how to fight the monsters but whether or not to do it in the first place. He says that you shouldn't, but doesn't say that it's because if you do you'll have to use the same evil methods that the monsters would use.

[Lightknight924]

RE: Re: RE: Discuss the meaning of this quote

Meh, I would disagree with afro's interpretation because it supposes things that aren't in the quote. For example, the quote didn't say "Don't fight the monsters as the monsters fight/antagonize you" and when afro suggests that "one [should] simply solve the problem" that doesn't answer HOW to solve the problem. And I don't think Nietzche was trying to say "Don't fight the monsters, negotiate with them!"

Fire with fire IS NOT comparable because that suggests the methods by which fighting occurs, whereas in the actual quote nothing is said about HOW fighting between you and the monsters should happen, just that it shouldn't happen at all.

Yes, but if it does occur then the only thing you will get out of the fighting is eventually leading up to more and more fighting. Take wars for example, one war starts between two countries and then the countries allies hop in and then everyones at war. That Talisman proves fighting won't resolve anything. Which also proves that in the quote "Don't fight the monsters, lest ye become a monster." means don't fight the monster or else you will end up on the same path the monster did before it fought you. If you fight the monster, then truely you are the monster. Which proves that if the country who didn't start the war decides to fight in it then they help the cause of the war which is destruction. It's all malice. Chaos.

[Specforces]

RE: Re: RE: Discuss the meaning of this quote

He's not saying you shouldn't battle monsters, he's merely stating that you need to be cautious when involving yourself deeply in a conflict of an evil nature. Because you can lose who you truly are down the path of purification.

[talisman]

RE: Re: RE: Discuss the meaning of this quote

No, he's definitely saying you shouldn't battle monsters. That's why it says "Battle not with monsters".

It's unequivocal. Maybe if he wanted to mean more with it he should have fleshed it out a little more.

[Lightknight924]

Re: RE: Re: RE: Discuss the meaning of this quote

Meh, I would disagree with afro's interpretation because it supposes things that aren't in the quote. For example, the quote didn't say "Don't fight the monsters as the monsters fight/antagonize you" and when afro suggests that "one [should] simply solve the problem" that doesn't answer HOW to solve the problem. And I don't think Nietzche was trying to say "Don't fight the monsters, negotiate with them!"

Fire with fire IS NOT comparable because that suggests the methods by which fighting occurs, whereas in the actual quote nothing is said about HOW fighting between you and the monsters should happen, just that it shouldn't happen at all.

Yes, but if it does occur then the only thing you will get out of the fighting is eventually leading up to more and more fighting. Take wars for example, one war starts between two countries and then the countries allies hop in and then everyones at war. That Talisman proves fighting won't resolve anything. Which also proves that in the quote "Don't fight the monsters, lest ye become a monster." means don't fight the monster or else you will end up on the same path the monster did before it fought you. If you fight the monster, then truely you are the monster. Which proves that if the country who didn't start the war decides to fight in it then they help the cause of the war which is destruction. It's all malice. Chaos.

[talisman]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Discuss the meaning of this quote

That is entirely tangential to my discussion and irrelevant, especially after my reply to spec.

I KNOW that he's saying if you battle the monsters you will become a monster. That isn't my point at all. My point relates to refuting previous claims that the quote is about HOW you fight the monsters/evils. It isn't. It's about whether or not the conflict is engaged in in the first place.

[Specforces]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Discuss the meaning of this quote

He's not outright saying, "DON'T DO IT." He's just saying be careful.

[talisman]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Discuss the meaning of this quote

"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes into you."

I disagree, it seems pretty clear. If he wanted to say "be careful" the quote would be

"Be careful when battling monsters, lest ye become a monster..."

[Lightknight924]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Discuss the meaning of this quote

For fighting will lead you down a trail of betrayal young padowan. Anger, to the dark side it leads.

[Specforces]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Discuss the meaning of this quote

it's deeper than that, the only reason I say that is because I've read most of his works. So either it was just a surface problem or he just contradicts the fuck out of himself.

[talisman]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Discuss the meaning of this quote

Or else he just has clarity issues. I find most philosophers like to deliberatle muddy things so that they seem more profound. For example here the parallel structure would indicate that there's some kind of connection between "monsters" and "abyss". Yet while both are vaguely evil, I can't draw any direct connection between the two ideas. Are monsters supposed to be external and the abyss internal? Impossible to answer conclusively.