fuck Georgia

[Funnygurl555]

Re: fuck Georgia

I agree that generalizing the religous isnt gonna change minds

still tho its lame to compare religous intolerance to racism lol

it wasn't a comparison. we all know that racism is bad so it's good example for a thought exercise.

It has been a known and well understood thing for decades that people in an oppressed class will vote for their own oppression in the generally mistaken assumption that by proving themselves "one of the good ones" that the group oppressing them will make an exception for them. It is also a known and well understood thing that misogyny like homophobia is often internalized as a result of one's upbringing and even people who are voting directly against their own best interest can convince themselves of the rightness of their position even while it causes them direct harm.

this is something i've never heard of so if you have links to text i can look at that'd be cool

The same percentage of men and women appear to support banning abortion according to Funny's poll results there. How many of those women do you think are currently married to those men? I would put money down that it is at least half of them, probably more.

i mean, yeah that's likely. but i don't think their thoughts were influenced by the men they're with per se, but by the environment they've always been in.

[devonin]

Re: fuck Georgia

it wasn't a comparison. we all know that racism is bad so it's good example for a thought exercise.

This is not always, and is in fact almost never a good thought exercise. Saying "If you substitute in this other group that is not related to the subject and it 'sounds bad' that means your statement is bad" is just almost never correct.

"The Catholic Church is inherently oppressive to women, and has always taken steps to ensure the subjugation of women in the Church and therefore in wider society." is a statement that I, as somebody raised, baptized, confessed, and confirmed Catholic who had 15 years of Catholic education absolutely believe to be the case.

To say "Well if you substitute "The Catholic Church" for say..."Pick a race" you'll see how that statement magically becomes racist!" and like...okay, except the statement was about the group that actually does the thing the statement was about. Replacing it with a group that -does not do that- making the analogy fall apart is not actually a criticism of that analogy.

this is something i've never heard of so if you have links to text i can look at that'd be cool

You need look no further than all of the coal miners and farmers that voted for Trump who are now being completely ruined by his policies. You can look at the success of candidates in poorer rural white areas who go on to just give tax breaks to the wealthy and leave the poor with cuts to all their services. It happens ALL THE TIME.

i mean, yeah that's likely. but i don't think their thoughts were influenced by the men they're with per se, but by the environment they've always been in.

If the environment creates internalized misogyny and causes women raised in that environment to hold those positions, I think it's fair to suggest that the ~20% of people who "want to ban abortion" would be much closer to 10% of all those women hadn't been raised and then married into and then lived in an environment that taught them to hate themselves.

[Funnygurl555]

Re: fuck Georgia

To say "Well if you substitute "The Catholic Church" for say..."Pick a race" you'll see how that statement magically becomes racist!" and like...okay, except the statement was about the group that actually does the thing the statement was about. Replacing it with a group that -does not do that- making the analogy fall apart is not actually a criticism of that analogy.

but see, she didn't criticize the ideology; she criticized the people who believe it. and so yes, it's an offensive sweeping generalization that she can't even prove to be true (e.g. are you sure that christians want to punish women? perhaps some, but can you make that generalization?). when speaking about subjects like this, she should have been more careful with what she said. not that i'm offended (duh), but fighting bigotry with more bigotry does not make progress.

anyway i still think it's a good thought exercise :shrug:

You need look no further than all of the coal miners and farmers that voted for Trump who are now being completely ruined by his policies. You can look at the success of candidates in poorer rural white areas who go on to just give tax breaks to the wealthy and leave the poor with cuts to all their services. It happens ALL THE TIME.

i meant it sincerely that what you were talking about was something i never heard of before, and i wanted links in order to learn more about it. it's okay if that's not something you have, but i wasn't contesting your prior point.

If the environment creates internalized misogyny and causes women raised in that environment to hold those positions, I think it's fair to suggest that the ~20% of people who "want to ban abortion" would be much closer to 10% of all those women hadn't been raised and then married into and then lived in an environment that taught them to hate themselves.

yeah, i agree. but what you said doesn't refute what i said, if that's what you were going for.

[rayword45]

Re: fuck Georgia

just wanna say i stole my last point from a communist acquaintance of mine lol

[mellonxcollie]

Re: fuck Georgia



this is from alabama

Yes, intersectionality is a thing and power structures are complicated. But we can't say men aren't in more control, and ultimately deciding what is happening. None of the women who voted in the alabama vote voted yes.

So yes, these specific men are actually pushing this idea onto women. We can argue about theoretical blame all day but I'd rather keep that for when real people aren't having their rights fucking stomped all over

This pic says all it needs to say

[MarcusHawkins]

Re: fuck Georgia

this is from alabama

Yes, intersectionality is a thing and power structures are complicated. But we can't say men aren't in more control, and ultimately deciding what is happening. None of the women who voted in the alabama vote voted yes.

So yes, these specific men are actually pushing this idea onto women. We can argue about theoretical blame all day but I'd rather keep that for when real people aren't having their rights fucking stomped all over

This pic says all it needs to say

There's also not any Republican women, which is interesting considering Alabama is a red state.

[XelNya]

Re: fuck Georgia

these are bigoted sentences. you shouldn't generalize most people in the world this way. a good way to reflect on how you think is if you replace religious people with a different group (e.g. race of people) and see if what you say comes off as offensive.

and i speak as an immigrant community's nightmare, dissociating from culturally/religiously held beliefs are difficult, and condemning people for not doing so is not how you solve the problem

FG you are actually one of my favorite people on this site.

wft is this, uh this is a forum for a rhythm flash game. That being said I am extremely surprised that admins don't censor or ban controversial forum posts. I am actually quite supportive of that.

Most of the time they do when it gets out of hand. This thread has been kept very civil, and there's been no name calling / derailment. It's been a nice heavy discussion, which tbh for a thread like this, is rare. It'd be really bad of the forum mods to lock the thread before that happens.

Also again, fuck those people

[Funnygurl555]

Re: fuck Georgia

FG you are actually one of my favorite people on this site.

likewise

keep doing you man

[DaBackpack]

Re: fuck Georgia

There's a bunch of things being conflated

1) Nobody is saying that all proponents of pro-life are bigots or are consciously aware of any misogynistic bias. Such bias is unconscious.

We live in a patriarchal society. Certain people benefit from this in explicit terms and are aware of this. These people, I suspect, are religious officials and elected politicians, as well as (potentially) business executives. People in power seek to remain in power; this is why progressive outlooks and revolutionary thinking are scary to them. To stay in
power, these people condition the rest of the populace to think a certain way. In other words, Bob and Jill from Alabama might not wish to subjugate women, but they do express political views that further the patriarchal objectives.

"Life is precious" is a form of conditioning that leads people to reject abortion without explicitly confronting the misogynistic undertones behind pro-life stances. It's a simple mantra that seems unpolitical even if the discussion for the past several decades has historically been rooted in political and religious agenda.

If you are pro-life you are complicit in patriarchy whether you realize it or not.

2) Women being pro-life means nothing w/r/t to this discussion because, as mentioned above, misogyny can be internalized. "Women should stop being sluts, I will never need an abortion because I am chaste." ---- she says until she accidentally gets pregnant. It is well-documented that these women will view their own unwanted pregnancy as an exceptional case that does not contradict her held beliefs (which prevents cognitive dissonance). Numerous women in the Kavanaugh case called Blasey-Ford a liar and that sexual assault as a political issue was artificially inflated by liberals. Numerous women were anti-LGBT until either they or a loved one came out. Does that make these issues any less about gender and oppression?

No, both genders are complicit in upholding patriarchal beliefs.

3) No one is denying the religious experience. Religion holds valuable function in social outreach and community engagement. We are suggesting that religion is no longer needed in a modern system of morality and that religious appeals to pro-life stances should categorically be disregarded. "Thou shalt not kill" is an axiom that emerged from the Old Testament, we can't deny that. But "thou shalt not kill" is not a moral precept because it's in the Bible, it's a moral precept because it allows society to function and increases the quality of life for everyone. You can justify this commandment outside of its function in the Bible.

An appeal to religion only works if you can demonstrate that the stance you take is worthy outside of the dogma of religion. "God says that life is precious because He created us" is not a valid argument because it holds no water outside of the dogma of Abrahamic faith.

[DaBackpack]

Re: fuck Georgia

Internalized misogyny examples:

http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/anti-tales.shtml?fbclid=IwAR1u5Hy5O8Y6C1NnrOEXe4im-ExETEeAlc30nxv8r9toLQJcJFQEtegCzAs

Many anti-choice women are convinced that their need for abortion is unique -- not like those "other" women -- even though they have abortions for the same sorts of reasons. Anti-choice women often expect special treatment from clinic staff. Some demand an abortion immediately, wanting to skip important preliminaries such as taking a history or waiting for blood test results. Frequently, anti-abortion women will refuse counseling (such women are generally turned away or referred to an outside counselor because counseling at clinics is mandatory). Some women insist on sneaking in the back door and hiding in a room away from other patients. Others refuse to sit in the waiting room with women they call "sluts" and "trash." Or if they do, they get angry when other patients in the waiting room talk or laugh, because it proves to them that women get abortions casually, for "convenience".

A few behave in a very hostile manner, such as calling clinic staff "murderers." Years ago, a clinic counselor in British Columbia told me that one of her patients went into the procedure room apparently fine with her decision to have an abortion. During the abortion, at a stage when it was too late to stop the procedure, the woman started screaming "You murderers!" and other invectives at everyone in the room.

"We have anti-choice women in for abortions all the time. Many of them are just naive and ignorant until they find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy. Many of them are not malicious. They just haven't given it the proper amount of thought until it completely affects them. They can be judgmental about their friends, family, and other women. Then suddenly they become pregnant. Suddenly they see the truth. That it should only be their own choice. Unfortunately, many also think that somehow they are different than everyone else and they deserve to have an abortion, while no one else does." (Physician, Washington State)

[MixMasterLar]

Re: fuck Georgia

I'm just going to show support to SunFan's posts and point out that if you're thinking the best course of action is not to try and reach out and stop demonizing people who disagree with you, you are probably doing it wrong.

Some people in this thread are vocally saying that it isn't favorable to even try to reason with the far right. Just remember that if you try to force an "All or Nothing" outcome you may just roll on nothing.

[DaBackpack]

Re: fuck Georgia

I'm just going to show support to SunFan's posts and point out that if you're thinking the best course of action is not to try and reach out and stop demonizing people who disagree with you, you are probably doing it wrong.

Some people in this thread are vocally saying that it isn't favorable to even try to reason with the far right. Just remember that if you try to force an "All or Nothing" outcome you may just roll on nothing.

We've been trying to reach out to pro-lifers for fucking decades now and look at where we are now. What the hell are we supposed to do?

Historically there are cases where "peaceful, collaborative discussion" flat-out doesn't work (...most American civil rights movements succeeded on account of aggression, revolution, and occasionally violence.) So my suggestion is that if bigots aren't willing to compromise, neither should we.

Again, people in power have no reason to compromise with the rest of us until it becomes their problem.

[DaBackpack]

Re: fuck Georgia

People so often default to, "you should be peaceful and civil, if you're not civil you're just like them!!!!!!!!", not realizing that

1) we've fucking tried
2) this attitude reinforces the status-quo because it suggests that the only way to make progress is to get down on our knees and suck-off the patriarchy instead of, you know, challenging the institution itself

[devonin]

Re: fuck Georgia

What is the peaceful middle ground between
"I want to have control of my body"
and
"I want you to not have control of your body"?

[DaBackpack]

Re: fuck Georgia