Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

[Yieldsign]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

Rubin0: The flipside to that argument, though, is that being successful gives you options. Having the freedom and ability to pursue higher realms of intelligence and skill also gives you more control over your life. I feel like it's a delicate balance. I had horrible parents, but I worked my ass off and put myself under VERY extreme, extreme levels of mental and emotional discomfort -- that would make most psychologists cringe -- to get to where I am today . But now life is my oyster at age 24 and I have unlimited freedoms to pursue whatever I wish in life. I'd choose this over a relatively simpler life any day even though there are many things I would change about my upbringing if I could.

There's always this sort of false dialectic where it's either "be a happy, poor artist" or "be a sad, unfulfilled but rich lawyer." I would argue against just how true those statements may be. I feel like too many people assume that "going easy on your kids" leads to happy kids, whereas being a "mean, strict parent" leads to low self-esteem and lack of fulfillment. I know plenty of "starving artist" types and they're always, well, starving and just as miserable as any other. "I wouldn't want to be a rich lawyer anyway" is the sort of self-comforting logic I hear from people that weren't *able* to pursue such an option to begin with. If most were presented with that type of work and a massive paycheck, you can bet many of them would jump ship.

Sometimes a "predetermined destiny" isn't a horrible thing if it means guiding your child into a lifestyle that will provide them with the ability to do whatever they want in life, which is a massive privilege/gift. Like any other form of investment, you give up a little early to get a lot more later. You just need to know when to stop investing and when to start cashing out. The key is knowing the difference between tough love and abuse.

What this obviously suggests is a compromise between the two styles, not justifying one or the other. Come on rubix...

[benguino]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

What this obviously suggests is a compromise between the two styles, not justifying one or the other. Come on rubix...

Ahh... the logical fallacy: "fallacy of the excluded middle"

[Reincarnate]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

What this obviously suggests is a compromise between the two styles, not justifying one or the other. Come on rubix...

i'm just arguing that too many people throw up this false dialectic and it's usually a prominent justification in many parenting styles. l2read

"compromise" is a misleading term in this context. It's not so much "not being too wimpy but not being too strict," which I think most people would interpret "compromise" to imply.

I don't assume that a person can't be happy as a lawyer. I was merely stating that if my child were happy being an auto mechanic then I would be happy for him. If he were happy being a high paid lawyer then I would be happy for him. I would always encourage education since I view it as one of the most important things for a person to be successful but I'm not going to dictate what my child does once he reaches adulthood. I am making the personal decision to pursue education after college. My mother has always encouraged this but in the end it is completely up to me whether I want to continue going to school.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it's tautological. Of course we're going to be happy for our children if they are happy. The problem is how to maximize their happiness resultant of parenting style and determining what pathway is best to lead our kids through, when we should let nature take its course, and when we should intervene. They are not easy questions to answer -- but my concern is that too many people oversimplify the problem, and this is really apparent with the way most people have reacted to Chua's book, and I'm tired of seeing that false dialectic being invoked.

[Yieldsign]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

i'm just arguing that too many people throw up this false dialectic and it's usually a prominent justification in many parenting styles. l2read

"compromise" is a misleading term in this context. It's not so much "not being too wimpy but not being too strict," which I think most people would interpret "compromise" to imply.




The problem with this line of reasoning is that it's tautological. Of course we're going to be happy for our children if they are happy. The problem is how to maximize their happiness resultant of parenting style and determining what pathway is best to lead our kids through, when we should let nature take its course, and when we should intervene. They are not easy questions to answer -- but my concern is that too many people oversimplify the problem, and this is really apparent with the way most people have reacted to Chua's book, and I'm tired of seeing that false dialectic being invoked.

I think the point that you're missing, though (and admittedly one that Rubin isn't make very clear) is not that we shouldn't encourage the best lifestyle possible for our children - that much is clear.

The REAL meat of the argument is that parents should also reinforce and accept the choices of their children, with discretion of course (I mean, if my child wanted to be a prostitute, hell no). If my child WANTS to be an automechanic or an artist, I should accept it, even encourage it - while simultaneously explaining the relative pros and cons, and the risks of undertaking such a career path. What the "asian mother" scenario represents is not just providing the best life for your child but adhering to a very strict conception of what "success" and what a "good life" is, and rigorously enforcing that conception upon their children. That is not healthy for a child, unless they happen to agree on that conception of success. In many cases, they don't.

[Reincarnate]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

I think the point that you're missing, though (and admittedly one that Rubin isn't make very clear) is not that we shouldn't encourage the best lifestyle possible for our children - that much is clear.

The REAL meat of the argument is that parents should also reinforce and accept the choices of their children, with discretion of course (I mean, if my child wanted to be a prostitute, hell no). If my child WANTS to be an automechanic or an artist, I should accept it, even encourage it - while simultaneously explaining the relative pros and cons, and the risks of undertaking such a career path. What the "asian mother" scenario represents is not just providing the best life for your child but adhering to a very strict conception of what "success" and what a "good life" is, and rigorously enforcing that conception upon their children. That is not healthy for a child, unless they happen to agree on that conception of success. In many cases, they don't.

I would argue against that and say that sometimes a child doesn't know what's best for themselves. If my kid wanted to be an artist, I would have trouble encouraging that when I know full well how most artists turn out and what challenges they face down the road -- challenges a kid really won't care about until the shit hits the fan because they don't know anything different (and therefore don't know what it means to be financially self-sufficient or to potentially give up certain opportunities or lifestyles or skillsets). It is tempting to equate "Child displaying a desire to do X" with "Child is therefore happy if he is allowed to pursue X," but I think that children are usually ill-equipped to properly assess what will make them happiest down the road. That is where parents are useful, as they are able to leverage their experiences to ensure their own kids don't make mistakes that could be akin to shooting themselves in the foot.

There are certain realities to various lifestyles that many people don't realize until they're there. Even in a particular pathway would result in a very happy life down the road as a result of hard work, a child might kick and scream along the way. As Chua argues, nothing is fun until you're good at it.

[benguino]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

I would argue against that and say that sometimes a child doesn't know what's best for themselves. If my kid wanted to be an artist, I would have trouble encouraging that when I know full well how most artists turn out and what challenges they face down the road -- challenges a kid really won't care about until the shit hits the fan. It is tempting to equate "Child displaying a desire to do X" with "Child is therefore happy if he is allowed to pursue X," but I think that children are sometimes ill-equipped to properly assess what will make them happiest down the road.

There are certain realities to various lifestyles that many people don't realize until they're there. Even in a particular pathway would result in a very happy life down the road as a result of hard work, a child might kick and scream along the way. As Chua argues, nothing is fun until you're good at it.

I still don't think you understand the point that us others are trying to get across. I'm not saying that if child X wants to pursue Y, then the parent of child X should allow them to be free to do whatever they want. We are saying that child X's parents should try to guide them toward a general road (nothing too specific) by using mild suggestion, hinting, and explanations given to the child that list's the pro's and con's of the situation. Parent's should use the power of reason and persuasion to get their child "on course" as opposed to using the power of authority. When one (this can be for any situation) is limited down to only choice, they feel trapped and tend to respond in rebellion. Why? Because in our society, we associate the mitigation of speech with levels of respect. A direct command is more "mean" and disrespectful as opposed to a suggestion or hint. So, assuming disrespect is grounds for rebellion, one is more likely to rebel against a command as opposed to a suggestion.

By the way, a lot of my points, and the thing about mitigated speech vs respect, is from the book "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell.

[Reincarnate]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

I still don't think you understand the point that us others are trying to get across. I'm not saying that if child X wants to pursue Y, then the parent of child X should allow them to be free to do whatever they want. We are saying that child X's parents should try to guide them toward a general road (nothing too specific) by using mild suggestion, hinting, and explanations given to the child that list's the pro's and con's of the situation. Parent's should use the power of reason and persuasion to get their child "on course" as opposed to using the power of authority. When one (this can be for any situation) is limited down to only choice, they feel trapped and tend to respond in rebellion. Why? Because in our society, we associate the mitigation of speech with levels of respect. A direct command is more "mean" and disrespectful as opposed to a suggestion or hint. So, assuming disrespect is grounds for rebellion, one is more likely to rebel against a command as opposed to a suggestion.

By the way, a lot of my points, and the thing about mitigated speech vs respect, is from the book "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell.

I am saying that sometimes you may have to make tough choices for your kid that are best for them -- and that child may rebel anyway. However, rebellion isn't always an unhealthy thing. Sometimes "mild suggestion and hinting" is simply not enough. Like Chua mentions, many Chinese assume strength. Many Westerners assume fragility.

You can list pros and cons to a child all you want -- but that doesn't mean a child will really understand and heed the advice. Like I said, a child doesn't *know* any differently and therefore it's much harder to empathize with someone who's been through it all already.

Consider your lobster example, but let's make it something more in line with my point -- say, veggies:

1. "You are going to try the veggie platter"
2. "Would you be interested in trying our veggie platter today?"

It'd be great if we could "suggest" these things with the listed advantages and hope that more people choose #2 on their own accord. But the problem is that many kids won't care. They don't *want* the veggie platter, no matter how good you tell them it is. You know the platter is extremely nutritious and would help establish a really healthy system early on that would lead to exponential benefits later. And yet, that kid may fight. Sometimes you simply have to get your kid to eat the veggies, and sometimes persuasion alone won't do the trick. You may have to be a bit of a hard-ass from time to time.

[Izzy]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

I would argue that there's more to life then just being successful. I guess if thats all you think is important then they are good parents.

[Rubin0]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

My approach to parenthood, or at least the approach I hope to take when I am a parent is to encourage my children to pursue what they love while also staying realistic. I hope that my child is a musician and an artist and a poet. However, I would never encourage these as day jobs. Everyone should pursue their passions while being able to provide for not only themselves but also their possible future family. I would encourage my child to take pottery classes, even minor in some form of art, but I would NOT encourage him or her to major in art unless he or she had hopes of someday being an art teacher. I hope that my child, after years of teaching him or her common sense, would realize that under any other circumstance, spending money on a degree in art is unreasonable because becoming a famous artist is highly unlikely. Art and poetry is for the weekends and evening hours. The day hours are for work and education. From my own experiences in college, the students that pursued degrees in areas like art or philosophy or English were often the result of over indulgent parents, whether wealthy or not. These people do not understand the value of the dollar or how their parents got to where they are. Majoring in art because you are good at drawing? Their parents must be the exact opposite of the "tiger" parents. Honestly I would like to find the healthy median because I don't want kids that are terrified of my disapproval or wishy washy kids that think spray painting a wall is a career.

[Reincarnate]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

My approach to parenthood, or at least the approach I hope to take when I am a parent is to encourage my children to pursue what they love while also staying realistic. I hope that my child is a musician and an artist and a poet. However, I would never encourage these as day jobs. Everyone should pursue their passions while being able to provide for not only themselves but also their possible future family. I would encourage my child to take pottery classes, even minor in some form of art, but I would NOT encourage him or her to major in art unless he or she had hopes of someday being an art teacher. I hope that my child, after years of teaching him or her common sense, would realize that under any other circumstance, spending money on a degree in art is unreasonable because becoming a famous artist is highly unlikely. Art and poetry is for the weekends and evening hours. The day hours are for work and education. From my own experiences in college, the students that pursued degrees in areas like art or philosophy or English were often the result of over indulgent parents, whether wealthy or not. These people do not understand the value of the dollar or how their parents got to where they are. Majoring in art because you are good at drawing? Their parents must be the exact opposite of the "tiger" parents. Honestly I would like to find the healthy median because I don't want kids that are terrified of my disapproval or wishy washy kids that think spray painting a wall is a career.

100% agreed

I think at the end of the way, the best thing is to simply encourage intellectual curiosity. When you have that, you *want* to learn. You *want* to indulge in as much as you can. You don't see books as "books I have to read" but books you *want to read* because they will give you interesting information that'll help you get closer to your dreams/goals.

I can't remember the exact quote, but it was something like this:

"You can either tell a group of men to help build you a ship, or you can get them to dream about what lies beyond the horizon."

[rushyrulz]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

A direct command is more "mean" and disrespectful as opposed to a suggestion or hint. So, assuming disrespect is grounds for rebellion, one is more likely to rebel against a command as opposed to a suggestion.

American English is a mean language. When's the last time you used the subjunctive in regular conversation?

Consider your lobster example, but let's make it something more in line with my point -- say, veggies:

1. "You are going to try the veggie platter"
2. "Would you be interested in trying our veggie platter today?"

It'd be great if we could "suggest" these things with the listed advantages and hope that more people choose #2 on their own accord.

Precisely. (lol context)

[benguino]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

Ok, you two (Reincarnate & rushyrulz), you got a point there. I'm not a stubborn person so I am willing to change me original thesis based on these new insights. Would it be right to say that suggestion and hinting be used initially, with direct commands being used sparingly as a last resort?

[Reincarnate]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

I don't know about "suggesting vs. commanding," but I think there's nothing wrong with commanding as long as the command makes sense and is reasonable.

[Cavernio]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

Parents command kids to do things everyday, from brushing their teeth to eating their veggies. But those commands make sense because its for their physical well-being. Its much, much harder to know what is best for their psychological well-being. It depends on the person. The thing about her article that struck me the most (well, at least which hasn't been discussed in length here), is that kids will not try to do anything for themselves, and that they need that external motivation to do things. That's simply not true. Give something the kid kinda likes (which, granted, they won't know until they've tried it), and it'll be obvious. I loved figure skating and dancing, and I hated baseball. All my parents had to do was offer the choice, do it for a season, and they'd ask if I wanted to do it again next season. I never chose to not do anything in my entire life until an adult. I learned a bit of piano from my mom, but definitely by the time I was 10, possibly earlier, I was the person asking her for lessons, not the other way around.

I really think the age of a kid is important for how much you push them too. If you push them at a very young age, they'll get super good at whatever it is you're doing for them, however I have to think that their imagination would suffer a lot. Kids learn a lot more than just skills growing up; they learn who they are, really, they have such a rich internal life. (Or at least I did.) It would be terrible, absolutely terrible, to take that away from a kid. I had a friend, non-asian, whose father pushed her to skills beyond what most people had. Sure, she got all A's, but that didn't make her happy. She pulled all-nighters in friggin' junior high. It also didn't make her any smarter; I helped her with math and physics right up through highschool. Albeit, when I hung out with her the most, my grades went up, not that they were bad. But what did go up didn't matter, because I don't remember dick all about the middle east from grade 9 social studies, even though for the only time in my life I buckled down and memorized things. There's also an age, a pretty young one in my mind, where a child is no longer just a child too. I mean, there's 12 year olds who post here who are perfectly capable of making up their own mind about whether they want to play piano or not.

[Phlegmatism]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

I enjoyed this read, thanks for bumping.

My mom is Chinese, and my dad is Caucasian. They divorced while I was in Kindergarten. Gender stereotypes aside, my mother's personality was more orderly, rational, supportive--morally and academically, and helpful. My dad is comical, more of a friend, playful, and supported persistent physical labor. In the article you can see the strains and disagreements between the typical Chinese parenting versus the "Westerner" parenting.

For 12 years I would spend half a week at one house, and half a week at the other having to adjust to different lifestyles on a regular basis.

Flat out I would have to say I prefer Chinese parenting. Rewards are so great when the goals are so high. Not to say Western parenting is inferior, but even in school, when people were satisfied with B's, it would influence me that I too could settle for something low. Honestly, if my dad had no say in my parenting, I believe I could have had better grades, have gotten into a better college, and have much more self-respect and self-discipline. However, with the personal freedom I could have maintained at my dad's, had I stayed there full-time, I'd be much more sociable and willing to interact with others--I'd make more connections, probably have more study buddies, and trust more people.

I feel that I could never hone in on a single lifestyle at this point. It's led me to become more of an open-minded, unbiased entity. But no hard feelings at Western parenting, I just feel that I could never amount to the person I am today without my Chinese mom.