Is it wrong to be gay?

[Cavernio]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

As to the discussions that homosexuality denies life...you'd be surprised that studies actually support such things in nature. For instance, if you overcrowd most rodent species, you find much higher rates of homosexuality. That makes total sense to me: the animal still gets sexual pleasure, but they're not going to kill the population or bring more suffering into being by having kids.
In humans, there's actually studies that show that guys are more likely to be homosexual when they have older brothers. For any type of heirarchical male dominated society, (which seems likely there was in our long-ago past) this could also make a lot of sense.

[iamgoodhehe]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

The ONLY way for it to be wrong to be gay is if you had a religion where it was basically a sin. Otherwise, it doesn't matter what the hell anyone says, be gay.

[Cavernio]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Chrissi: Maybe I didn't read what you said they way you meant it, but I think you've said that pedophilia is not a choice, but that homo vs heterosexuality is. I don't understand how you could think this, unless like I said, I misunderstood you.

[Chrissi]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

No, I didn't say that, Cavernio. What I said is that saying it isn't a choice isn't a very good defense, regardless of whether it's a choice or not. I'm not saying that being gay is a choice someone makes. Of course not. Who would make such a ridiculous choice. "I'm going to be attracted to the same gender now!!!".... yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that lots of things aren't your choice, but that doesn't make them good or okay. Like pedophilia. I'm sure pedophiles aren't like "Yeah!! I'm gonna be attracted to kids now!!" That's ridiculous. They just find themselves attracted to them. But nobody would say that pedophilia is okay because it isn't a choice.

I'm basically arguing for consistency. If you're going to say "Homosexuality is okay because it isn't a choice", you need to apply that "okay" to everything else that isn't a choice. Since you can't (eg pedophilia), it doesn't make for a good defense. You can't apply it consistently.

[rushyrulz]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Being a pedophile is illegal. Being homosexual is not.

[Chrissi]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Wonderful. I'm not equating pedophilia with homosexuality. I'm saying the rationale that person was using doesn't work, because he can't apply it consistently. If it's okay to be homosexual because it's not a choice, then it's okay to be a pedophile because it's not a choice. It's not okay to be a pedophile, so the reasoning doesn't hold.

[Etylukah]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

I don't understand this debate. In my head it's like you were asking me if it was right to be white or black except that instead of talking about race we're talking about a mindset generated by genes. I mean, we don't have control of what happens to us before we were born, why should some people be penalized for it?

I don't exactly believe in this type of right and wrong too. I just think that there's actions that creates consequences.
Something right or wrong should be about what you do and what you don't do, not something you are or not.
Otherwise Cavernio pretty much explained the other right/wrong aspect possibilities. (but it's typically more a moral aspect than rational which is also important)

You could be born as a pedophile, if you manage to not do any actions that would creates "wrong" consequences you should be fine regardless.
I'm just failing to comprehend what could be wrong with homosexuality from an impartial/rational point of view. It seems to be more a question of morals/ethics.. and even there, it would still be more right than wrong. I guess society in general just need more time to adjust?

[Chrissi]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

So are you saying that pedophiles are normal functioning members of society as long as they can keep their hands off kids?

That's an interesting notion. I guess it could be true.

[Iam90]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

So are you saying that pedophiles are normal functioning members of society as long as they can keep their hands off kids?

That's an interesting notion. I guess it could be true.

is that really such a bizarre notion??

i mean, given that we have no putative cure for pedophilia, the primary goals of sex rehabilitation programs for sex offenders is to control their urges, not to outright eliminate them

now, whether that be efficacious is another question; it is, of course, remarkably ineffective. but CHOICE does matter - we don't PROSECUTE pedophiles for BEING pedophiles - we prosecute them for committing sex offenses.

you are wrong in your assessment because you assume that we criminalize pedophilia. we don't criminalize urges or attractions (at least, not yet - i hope it stays that way), we criminalize actions and offenses. that's because there's an underlying ethical assumption that culpability can't exist if there's no choice involved

[fido123]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

There's nothing wrong with being attracted to kids, but it's wrong to then go out and do sexual things with kids. Look at it in it's simplest form...what is it going to hurt if somebody simply finds kids attractive? Yes it COULD lead to other things but that depends largely on the person, just look at the attraction alone. If somebody told me they had a thing for kids I wouldn't even loose an ounce of respect for them, however I would loose all respect for them if they molested one.

[Chrissi]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Yeah, you're right. I actually was hoping someone would bring this angle up and flesh it out since I couldn't really see past my own point that nobody was arguing against.

[Iam90]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

it is a difficult issue though (although not quite pertinent to this thread)

i mean, we can't in good conscience prosecute pedophile's for their attractions alone but given the extremely high rate of acting upon those urges... are there anymore preventative measures we could do to keep kids safe (this applies to sex offenders in general) without breaching their personal freedoms?

the topic is like the psychological/ethical equivalent of isreal/palestine to me; there is just no easy solution, if one at all (at least right now)

[fido123]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Would you want to live in a country where it was illegal to think something? I'm sure a lot of people find kids attractive, but tell no-one, or act upon it. The only cases you hear about are the ones where somebody has done something to draw media attention.

[Rubin0]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

I believe that there are A LOT of pedophiles that have stayed under the radar their entire lives. I think they are living normal lives and suppressing their attraction to children. I still don't like the idea of comparing gays to pedophiles. I do however believe that pedophiles cannot control their attraction...whether they act on it is a completely different story. I also believe that there will never be a place for pedophiles in society. It should never be accepted as a sexual orientation. Homosexuality, while differing from the "norm" is harmless in that it is between two consenting individuals. Children cannot and should never be expected to consent to sex.

[Cavernio]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Upon the topic of pedophilia, I saw on some news station just like 2 days ago that a book regarding pedophilia was banned from being sold electronically for kindles or something. I think the purpose of the book was like a way in which to be a pedophile in our society without it being a problem, but having not read the book I have no idea how far that went, like if it discussed actual sex practices with kids or not. It showed a 2 second blurb with the author, and he was a pitiable man who seemed to really fall in love with kids.
I think we can compare pedophilia with homosexuality on some level in that I bet many closet gays who've been raised that homosexuality is wrong probably feel like their sexual urges are as wrong as if they were pedophiles. I also think that a discussion about whether pedophilia is wrong is much more interesting than if homosexuality is wrong :-p Consent seems to be the issue at hand, but what is it about, say, a 10 year old who may even have started getting her period already and who has sexual urges, not able to consent to sex? There's obviously an age at which there's no understanding about what's going on, but what about older children? If it were regular practice for sex to happen with kids if they consented (or at least said they consented), would it still be emotionally scarring? I swear I've heard somewhere of some african cultures or whatever where kids mimic sex with each other, just like any other mimicry kids do. Outwardly I don't think anyone found anything traumatic to these kids.