Is it wrong to be gay?

[MrRubix]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Chrissi, for someone who is studying that stuff, I'm surprised you don't acknowledge the evidence that suggest genes play a very strong role. Nothing's conclusive on either side of the argument (in my opinion this is likely because both play a part in tandem), but to say "I have never encountered proof that homosexuality has a genetic basis" is a bit disingenuous to the issue.

[Izzy]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Is it not true that people are born with heterosexuality? Or do you think that everyone is heterosexual because everyone else is heterosexual. To me it seems like hormones play a big role, and it is pretty well known that people can be born with all kinds of hormone deficiencies and unnatural levels of the opposite hormones. There are even genetic mutations of the sex chromosomes to produce trans gendered people. How can all of those different birth effects not have a large impact on someones sexual orientation.

If a gay person developed his homosexuality later in life why would it ever be possible to easily point out a gay man from a group of men. Assuming they are dressed the same. There voice box is different from what I assume is lower levels of testosterone and possibly higher levels of estrogen.

Either way it seems ridiculous to say there is no reason to believe that homosexuality is not something genetic related.

[Chrissi]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Nothing's conclusive on either side of the argument (in my opinion this is likely because both play a part in tandem), but to say "I have never encountered proof that homosexuality has a genetic basis" is a bit disingenuous to the issue.

I take "proof" to be a very strong word. I realize there are studies that give indications that a genetic basis might be possible. But nobody has proven it (to my knowledge), so it's just wrong to tell it as if it's fact.

I just feel that my theory better encompasses the way homosexuality arises and the variations across cultures.

Is it not true that people are born with heterosexuality? Or do you think that everyone is heterosexual because everyone else is heterosexual.

No, that's a complete non-issue in my view. Since I believe that sexual orientation is almost entirely learned, I believe that, in general, people are socialized to be heterosexual, but some people reject this and become homosexual instead. We aren't born straight - we are born humans.

Basically, no, I don't think we're born heterosexual - we aren't born anything. Although this may sound contradictory, I do also believe that some people are born with a strong heterosexual tendency and others are born with a strong homosexual tendency. But I think most humans can go either way depending on environmental/social/external factors.

What I mean is that the majority of sexual orientation is not innate. There may be some small innate aspect but it's minor. It's like you don't have to be born with a sweet tooth to enjoy candy. You could hate candy until you're 35 years old and then love candy. How do you know you were "born with" this? You probably weren't... unless you could only stand sweet things as an infant and this was consistent as you grew up, then you might have been "born with" a sweet tooth.

To me it seems like hormones play a big role, and it is pretty well known that people can be born with all kinds of hormone deficiencies and unnatural levels of the opposite hormones. There are even genetic mutations of the sex chromosomes to produce trans gendered people. How can all of those different birth effects not have a large impact on someones sexual orientation.

First of all, transgendered people are defined as those who are OTHERWISE NORMAL but for some reason have a strong desire to personally associate with the gender to which they were not originally prescribed. You are talking about intersex people when you talk about sex chromosomes and mixed up hormones causing gender confusion. This is entirely different.

You don't want to tread into those waters. What you're talking about is very complex and I don't even know how to begin to explain how amazingly intertwined and yet unrelated these issues are. I don't feel like writing an essay right now. Just know that I know a LOT more about intersexuality than I do about homosexuality and sexual orientation as compared to what most people know about either issue, and I could talk for years about sexual development and sexual/chromosomal/hormonal disorders.

If a gay person developed his homosexuality later in life why would it ever be possible to easily point out a gay man from a group of men. Assuming they are dressed the same. There voice box is different from what I assume is lower levels of testosterone and possibly higher levels of estrogen.

Either way it seems ridiculous to say there is no reason to believe that homosexuality is not something genetic related.

Wow, you're just playing on stereotypes and social convention. "Gay guys act differently than straight dudes and that means they were born that way". Do you understand that social factors strongly affect the way you act?

You haven't given me any evidence whatsoever (not even close) to indicate that sexual orientation is genetic in nature. Also I have never seen a study showing that gay men consistently have lower levels of testosterone, or that this is in ANY way a "cause" of them being gay.

[Izzy]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Wow, you're just playing on stereotypes and social convention. "Gay guys act differently than straight dudes and that means they were born that way". Do you understand that social factors strongly affect the way you act?

You haven't given me any evidence whatsoever (not even close) to indicate that sexual orientation is genetic in nature.

What I'm saying is that a gay man generally acts more feminine in nature. And have a a feminine undertone in their voice.

[Chrissi]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

What I'm saying is that a gay man generally acts more feminine in nature. And have a a feminine undertone in their voice.

And? That means it's genetic? Explain how, please.

It just sounds to me like you have a very loose grasp of what kinds of things indicate genetic cause and what kinds of things indicate social cause.

The "feminine" mannerisms of gays are DEFINITELY socially constructed, no doubt about it. Gays act that way to define themselves and to identify themselves with the gay culture. There are plenty of gays who do not identify this way - look at the very first post in this topic for a good example.

[devonin]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

One thing I'm aware of from a documentary I'd seen on human sexuality, is that a woman carrying a male fetus produces a barrier in the womb that keeps estrogen levels low going into the fetus, and that the more male children a woman gives birth to, the less that barrier is effective at keeping estrogen out, with the result being that the more male children a woman has, the more likely they are to develp more effeminate, and potentially more likely to be homosexual.

Anecdotally, I know more than a few "youngest of 3+ boys" boys who are gay.

[Chrissi]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

One thing I'm aware of from a documentary I'd seen on human sexuality, is that a woman carrying a male fetus produces a barrier in the womb that keeps estrogen levels low going into the fetus, and that the more male children a woman gives birth to, the less that barrier is effective at keeping estrogen out, with the result being that the more male children a woman has, the more likely they are to develp more effeminate, and potentially more likely to be homosexual.

Anecdotally, I know more than a few "youngest of 3+ boys" boys who are gay.

Yes, I don't know how strong that one is - I think it comes from like just one study, though I could be wrong. Either way... yup, that one is in definite support of the environmental factors thing. Not social, not genetic, but environmental (which includes social).

I was going to mention it in an earlier post but I don't think I did.

[Izzy]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

How is homosexual 3 year olds evidence of environmental factors? That is very backwards.

[Chrissi]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

How is homosexual 3 year olds evidence of environmental factors? That is very backwards.

Are you trolling?

Try reading my last 2 posts and maybe you'll understand.

[Wyde]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

How is homosexual 3 year olds evidence of environmental factors? That is very backwards.

I'm thinking you read devonin's post incorrectly here. I think he was referring to "the youngest of 3 (or more) children", not 3 year olds.

[fido123]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

From what I've researched online over the past year and a half, it doesn't seem to be genetic, but there does seem to be both biological and physiological like Chrissi said. A lot of it I think is a weak father figure. I can see this in my life, my boyfriend's life defiantly, and pretty much every gay person I know. Of course not every guy with a weak father figure is gay, in fact most aren't, a lot of it is biological. From my personal experiences, homosexuals tend to be a bit more femmy with some exceptions. God damn I love DDR, Rave Music, getting into Musicals, and have a strange obsession with cute things and will probably be some ****** in an apartment with a room dedicated to god damn plushies. For whatever reason, a lot of homosexuals have similar interests.

[Mollocephalus]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

i probably tried to bring this up earlier in this thread but how we consider bisexuality? is it just a transitory phase, a deviation from the two opposites (etherosexuality - homosexuality), or something else?

[fido123]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

i probably tried to bring this up earlier in this thread but how we consider bisexuality? is it just a transitory phase, a deviation from the two opposites (etherosexuality - homosexuality), or something else?

If both can exist, they can exist together in one person. I think the main reason is some people don't think gender should decide who you're allowed to love, which I agree with, but those people I also think are attracted to both.

[Mollocephalus]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

that makes sense. i do not go around saying "x is right" and then do y.
i, too, think that gender has nothing to do with emotions for a person.

[hantaaxD]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Hai there [: I don't think anything is wrong with being gay. People are differnt, and we should all accept that. I personally know gay/bi people, and just because they are like that does not make them bad people. They are the same, and have a good heart. Society now is so judgemental, and it's hard to deal with. But, I say keep your head up [: