Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

[Niala]

Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

*Points @ 80% no's*

[MrRubix]

Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

Anyone who voted "no" is an idiot. Certain files were made mad-easy with the avmiss fix and were no longer FMO-worthy. The FMO's that were nerfed were basically VC's that have their difficulty from arrow density.

[rajdaddy]

Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

Lets just get rid of every easy song.

[bmah]

Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

Anyone who voted "no" is an idiot. Certain files were made mad-easy with the avmiss fix and were no longer FMO-worthy. The FMO's that were nerfed were basically VC's that have their difficulty from arrow density.

I think much controversy is currently coming from the "wave" of newer VC files that are pretty hard. I think a lot of the old FMO songs are taken care of anyways, with a few exceptions (like NWE). But I realize that my discussion has expanded past old FMOs and is considering the more recent songs, and future ones henceforth.

Also, we're not objective enough on easier songs. I still have no clue what constitutes a difficulty of 2,3,4,5. No one is really complaining about that (it's all about FMOs which "matter more"), but we should still look into the easy songs as well.

[MrRubix]

Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

This does make sense, but don't forget to take into account the overall number of players of course. This is obvious when you compare a public song vs a token song, or an early-released song vs a new song. And then there's song popularity, which would definitely impact the number of good scores present. An obscure song that not many people play would be a different story, and this might even override the clues provided by the simfiles difficulty (e.g. an unpopular, but easy song may not have as many AAAs as it should. At the same time, there can be a multitude of sucky players, so the ratio of good to bad scores is skewed).

Oh, of course. My point assumes a well-randomized and sufficiently large population.

The problem is that we may need to account for skill threshold bias. E.g. really noob players are going to suck at a 9 just as hard as they'd suck at a 12 if they have no idea what they're doing and are just mashing, and will probably not play the harder files as often. This problem exists in reverse: An awesome player will dominate any file equal to or below his AAA-ability. There are certainly more noobs than there are great players, and so we need to take into account that noob players aren't exactly rushing to play OMW. This general point is further substantiated by http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/...p?sort=overall

Also consider http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/...t.php?sort=aaa

This is why I suggested that we try to "objectively" define difficulty. The problem I see with being practical is that to a new player, even a song with jumps is considered really hard. A song that makes you hit a few different arrows in a short timeframe is hard. An expert player may overlook these hurdles in assessing difficulty.

I don't think we need to get super hardcore and need to mega-calculate it all, but rather just pick a reasonable threshold that we think will account for significant differences in difficulty (I think 20 is good) and try to evaluate from there.

[bmah]

Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

No doubt. Pick out main factors, don't worry about subfactors and all that. At least that's better than what we have now.

So how is this going to work...
New thread? Someone in charge of initiating the new difficulty system? etc.

[jimerax]

Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

Of course difficulty ratings aren't related with people's skill at all.
Last time we just fixed some difficulty inconsistency, and the effect of avmiss (haven't done enough adjustment), mirror etc.

Completely objective difficulty rating system would be awesome if it actually works better than current system.. I can say it's really hard to create, since we failed to do in the past. especially digitalizing difficulties of rhythm/pattern related things.

btw is this argument really new thread worthy?

[mikeyzdragon24]

Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

20 is definitely a good scale to go off of. I agree that the used to be FMO's that used to have the avmiss problem (that solely based their difficulty because of it) should be downgraded. Others that the community were just getting better at that were downgraded are borderline to me. They could be FMO or VC. It all depends on the player who really defines the difficulties. A 20 scale isn't going to be perfect for everyone, but for the majority it will. There will still be people complaining about the new system and how stupid it is, but there are always people in the world like that.

20 system = +1

[leonid]

Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

Anyone who voted "no" is an idiot. Certain files were made mad-easy with the avmiss fix and were no longer FMO-worthy.

Apparently I wasn't disagreeing with Silence and NWE etc getting pulled down. They were far easier than Kanon Kanon or Bus Rides

I was saying that easiest FMOs shouldn't be moved to VC just because they are easy, and there should be a set borderline between the hardest VC and the easiest FMO.
(or we should rather change the entire difficulty system)

My bad; I didn't see the word 'old' in the title -_- but whatever

[krunkykai22]

Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

Anyone who voted "no" is an idiot. Certain files were made mad-easy with the avmiss fix and were no longer FMO-worthy. The FMO's that were nerfed were basically VC's that have their difficulty from arrow density.

Marcus, stop. Why are people idiots for saying no? Its their opinion.

What I feel should have happened, and to this day should happen, is they should ADD a difficulty or two. For one, songs like GOSW, NWE, VB, should have a difficulty of 11. TDSOK, Hajnal, etc etc should have a difficulty of 12. FN, KM, LOLO, should have 13. Other FGOS should be 14. Rato, DP 15. so on and so forth. Thats what I feel should happen.

1-easiest
2-for beginners
3-very easy
4-easy
5-standard
6-Tricky
7-Difficult
8-Very Difficult
9-Challenging
10-Very Challenging
11-Masters
12-High Masters
13-Gurus
14-High Gurus
15-God (haha)

But seriously something like that.

I agree with the fact that people grow over time. The quality and accuracy of people on the site WILL obviously grow, as it has shown. Now I say yes and no to the poll. Cause I agree keeping songs at the SAME difficulty would only make chaos. CIA Rave was an FMO iirc when this site first started right? Yeah. So that means by your logic we could obtain ONI from CIA Rave then? Over time songs will get harder. For all we know there could be a file called Sabatoge your wrists like mr.rubix. That could be a level 38 :/. who knows. Pretty much what we have to do is just sit by and watch. Nothing we say really matters as it clearly has shown.

[awein999]

Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

the problem is probably prevalent in the lower levels too, but we the experienced players notice the higher difficulty faults because anything below a 10 (for most of us here) is a AAA or at least easy. I'm sure if you talked to someone who wasn't good at the game, they'd find problems with lower difficults.

so again rubix's idea of a total revision of the levels with a 20 level scale is best but Krunky's is a good idea for just the higher levels.

I am surprised more than 80% of people in this thread voted no....

[krunkykai22]

Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

Agreed. Didn't fully read Rubix's post. Go with that idea xD

[T-Force]

Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

so again rubix's idea of a total revision of the levels with a 20 level scale is best but Krunky's is a good idea for just the higher levels.

I had an idea with this.
Because the Actual Difficulties thread uses a 99-point scale, why not divvy it up into chunks of 5 and create 20 difficulties? Sure names may be a pain to figure out, but this way it creates a solid way to place songs into difficulties.

Oh, RUBIX'S idea, eh?

[qqwref]

Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

I voted "no". I've only been playing FFR since just after the avmiss fix, but the VC-FMO line was a pretty clear thing and didn't change very much for quite a while. There were a lot of changes right at the beginning (especially since subbies had access to avmiss fix for a while and could clearly tell which songs got easier and which didn't), but as I recall it pretty quickly stabilized and we had stuff like LW4, NWE, Novo, etc that are still in my mind the cutoff for what feels like FMO.

I think what's happened recently with all the technically difficult VCs is related to the difference between FC/reading difficulty and AAA difficulty. Traditionally songs have been ranked by the difficulty to read/combo because that's what people first encounter as they get good enough to play a song - if we put something like SSSG into the VC range you'd get a ton of people who comment about getting like 10 goods on a "VC" when they can't combo anything else above a 6-7 difficulty. But now we have a lot of songs in the 9-10 range that are relatively easy to read (they don't belong in FMO by that standard) but really tough to AAA (stuff like Didj has only 38 AAAs -> belongs in FMO by that criterion). The problem there is that now when straightforward but fast low-FMO type songs come by (Kanon-Kanon, Slaytronic) people realize they are a lot easier to AAA than the technical VCs (which is true) and move them down to VC even though they're still pretty tough to actually play. The people who don't have speed (like me and probably most of the FFR community) will always think those songs are placed too low, but I already know it'll never get changed - the technical songs have permanently raised people's views of what the VC-FMO dividing line is.

[rajdaddy]

Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

Just everyone quit bitching jeeeezus.

Its all opinion, someone whos great at this game's opinion will always differ from people who arent.

So just leave it be, and go play the game.