The Death Penalty

[Xx{Midday}xX]

Re: The Death Penalty

The "right" to live/die is not equivalent to the "act" of living/dying.

"Right" is equivalent to "privilege" which is determined not only by yourself, but by those that subject you to their power. We all know that (under today's circumstances) living things will eventually meet a death. The question here is whether other people have the "right" to end another person's life as punishment for a "morally wrong" action.

Law is only a theory. It cannot be proven right or wrong, but can only be accepted by majority rule. This majority is determined by the moral code inherent to humans in nature. This moral code is classified under emotional thinking, which I believe to be completely irrational and unnecessary in practicality. As long as this moral code tells the majority of the people that the death penalty is immoral, that will be the law. Same thing goes for the opposite idea.

If we go all the way back to an original source, almost everything regarding ethics, morality, rules, law, etc., can be considered as just ideas and never facts.

[Coolgamer]

Re: The Death Penalty

Never. Too many innocent people have died as a result of the death penalty. Here's something for you to think about... 81% of the world's executions in 2002 took place in just three countries: China, Iran, and the USA. While he was still running for his first presidential term, George W. Bush said he felt capital punishment "sends a chilling message that there is a consequence to your actions". In the same speech he spoke of the "sacredness of human life". Since 1990, the USA has executed more prisoners who were under the age of eighteen at the time of the crime then any other country in the world.

In 80% of executions since 1977, the original murder victims were white.
A report by Amnesty International lists 50 cases where African-Americans were convicted by all-white juries, each one showing a pattern of black juror exclusion by government prosecutors.

At the the 1985 execution of James Raulerson, convicted of killing a police officer, more then 70 police attended, some wearing T-shirts reading "Crank up old Sparky". They celebrated with champagne and applause outside the prison.

A volunteer witness at the 2000 execution of Steve Roach said it was her third time, and that she kept volunteering because she found them "interesting". Another witness reportedly came to watch Roach die as a way of avenging the killing of her own son- for which no one had ever been convicted.

Napoleon Beazley, who was 17 at the time of his crime, in which he killed a man during a car jacking, an act he admitted to, had no prior arrests and was president of his senior class. He was sentenced to death by an all-white jury. Before his execution , he declared: "The act I committed to put me here was not just heinous, it was senseless. Tonight, we declare to the world that justice does not allow for a second chance... tonight, we tell our children that in some instances, killing is right."

[rzr]

Re: The Death Penalty

Some of the most recent posts in this thread don't make sense. First off, generally Thomas Jefferson and John Locke shared one philosophy, we all know it commonly in the American constitution. All people (really just white, property owning males) are born with the rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Actually, that's Jefferson's version. Locke followed a similar belief: Life, liberty, and property. Either way, there beliefs show nothing of there opinions of the death penalty. Besides, both owned slaves... Do you see morals here?

Oh, also, to the last post, can you site your sources, please?

[Coolgamer]

Re: The Death Penalty

Some of the most recent posts in this thread don't make sense. First off, generally Thomas Jefferson and John Locke shared one philosophy, we all know it commonly in the American constitution. All people (really just white, property owning males) are born with the rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Actually, that's Jefferson's version. Locke followed a similar belief: Life, liberty, and property. Either way, there beliefs show nothing of there opinions of the death penalty. Besides, both owned slaves... Do you see morals here?

Oh, also, to the last post, can you site your sources, please?

Bush remarks, 'Bush Defends Executions', CBSNews.com, 26 May 2000.

Napoleon Beazley's last statement, Texas Department of Criminal Justice, https://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/be...poleonlast.htm

'Napoleon's Last Stand', Texas Monthly magazine, July 2002.

Amnesty International, 'Facts and Figures on the Death Penalty', web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty_facts_eng

web.amnesty.org/library/print/engamr510032002


Totally off topic, here's the best last words from death row inmates, with sources:

Yes sir, I charge the people of the jury. Trial Judge, the Prosecutor that cheated to get this conviction. I charge each and every one of you with the murder of an innocent man. All the way to the CCA, Federal Court, 5th Circuit and Supreme Court. You will answer to your Maker when God has found out that you executed an innocent man. May God have mercy on you.

My love to my son, my daughter, Nancy, Kathy, Randy, and my future grandchildren. I ask for forgiveness for all of the poison that I brought into the US, the country I love. Please forgive me for my sins. If my murder makes it easier for everyone else let the forgiveness please be a part of the healing. Go ahead Warden, murder me. Jesus take me home. http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/pippenroylast.htm

Yes I do. I would like to say to my two brother-in-laws and the rest of my family that I would like to thank you for supporting me through all of this. I went home to be with my Father and I went home as a trooper. I would like to say to Damien's family I did not murder your son. I did not do it. I just want you to know that -- I did not murder Damien and would ask for all of your forgiveness and I will see all of you soon. I love you guys. I love you guys. That's it. http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/wyattwilliamlast.htm

Yeah. Momma, I just want you to know I love you. I want all of you to know I love you all. I am at peace; we know what it is. We know the truth. Stay out of crime; there is no point in it. I am at peace. We know the truth and I know it. I have some peace. I am glad it didn't take that long - no 10 or 20 years. I am at peace. And I want everyone to know I did not walk to this because this is straight up murder. I just want everybody to know I didn't walk to this. The reason is because it's murder. I am not going to play a part in my own murder. No one should have to do that. I love you all. I do not know all of your names. And I don't know how you feel about me. And whether you believe it or not, I did not kill them. I just want you all to have peace; you know what I'm saying. There is no point in that. It is neither here nor there. You have to move past it. It is time to move on. You know what I'm saying. I want each one of my loved ones to move on. I am glad it didn't last long. I am glad it didn't last long. I am at peace. I am at peace to the fullest. The people that did this - they know. I am not here to point fingers. God will let them know. If this is what it takes, just do what you got to do to get past it. What it takes. I am ready, Warden. Love you all. Let my son know I love him. http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/reeselamontlast.htm

May I speak to my family? Honey, I love you. Be strong and take care of yourselves. Thanks for being there. Take care of yourself. Ms. Irene, thank you for everything you have done. Chaplain Hart, thank you for helping me. Gary, thank you. Maria, Maria, I love you baby. Thank you for being there for me and all these people here will find the one who did this damn crime. I am going home to be with God. Thank you. Thank you, Warden. http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/wilsonjackielast.htm

Yes I do. I would like to address you first. I did not kill your loved one, but I hope that one day you find out who did. I wish I could tell you the reason why, or give some kind of solace; you lost someone you love very much. The same as my family and friends are going to lose in a few minutes. I am sure he died unjustly, just like I am. I did not murder him; I did not have anything to do with his death. And to you my family and friends, I love you dearly. Even though I die, that love for you will never die. Into Your hands, Lord, I commit my spirit. Thank you. Thank you all. http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/ramirezluislast.htm

Yes sir. Sorry that I have to put my family through this. All of you know I got my peace. And I hope you find peace. And to the family, the truth will come out and I hope you find peace. I got my peace. I hope everybody has their peace. I am tired. I am going to be in your heart. I love you all. To everybody else, the truth will be known. It didn't come out in time to save my life. It is wrong to put the families through this. But when it comes out, I hope it stops this. It is wrong for the prosecutors to lie and make witnesses say what they need them to say. The truth has always been there. I just hope everybody has their peace. Today I get mine. I love you all. http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/fuentesanthonylast.htm

[Zamiax]

Re: The Death Penalty

In speak of emotions, that are commonly involved in the decision of the death penalty, we use this penalty to avoid the life sentence, which even though seems more logical because its revesable, is, by most people, considered worse than the death penalty. in the minds of most people, those who are kept under the life sentence, can be set free if they are proven innocent, but those that are executed might actually be innocent and are already killed which affects how much people begin to question the law

[tha Guardians]

Re: The Death Penalty

In speak of emotions, that are commonly involved in the decision of the death penalty, we use this penalty to avoid the life sentence, which even though seems more logical because its revesable, is, by most people, considered worse than the death penalty. in the minds of most people, those who are kept under the life sentence, can be set free if they are proven innocent, but those that are executed might actually be innocent and are already killed which affects how much people begin to question the law

I know if I was arrested and I was looking at life in jail; no second chance, I'd rather die as a punishment then spend life in constant guilt and regret.

[rzr]

Re: The Death Penalty

I know if I was arrested and I was looking at life in jail; no second chance, I'd rather die as a punishment then spend life in constant guilt and regret.

It's not limitede to simply just that reason, however, that is another plus for the death penalty.

[devonin]

Re: The Death Penalty

Wait...the death penalty is for people who do the most horrible and heinous things...and a plus for you is that it is a kind mercy for them? If life in prison is "worse" than death, one assumes you'd be all for life in prison to further punish the murderers and rapists.

[rebelrunner26]

Re: The Death Penalty

Wait...the death penalty is for people who do the most horrible and heinous things...and a plus for you is that it is a kind mercy for them? If life in prison is "worse" than death, one assumes you'd be all for life in prison to further punish the murderers and rapists.

Wouldn't the "worse" punishment be a matter of opinion based on personal beliefs of the parties on both ends? To some people death is the ultimate punishment primarily because of fear for the unknown or for a strong desire to not "pass on". There's also another group of people that will welcome death with open arms instead of being locked up...so really that argument can go both ways as far as which punishment is "merciful."

If a murderer was captured before he succeeded in a suicide attempt, would death not be his first choice anyway? Scenarios like that can be thought of in HUGE quantities, but the first conclusion that "whichever is worse to the one being punished should be granted" doesn't really make any sense because of the lies and manipulations that go on in the legal process.

This being said, what would be a way to determine which punishment is ultimately "worse" for an individual? And that's just assuming that they are actually guilty.

Personal opinion--cannot be sentenced to death until ABSOLUTE proof is shown, and even then the sentence should not be given out without careful consideration.

[T3hDDRKid]

Re: The Death Penalty

I skimmed all of the pages of this thread and I apologize sincerely if this point has already been brought up - if so, please simply tell me and I'll read more thoroughly to find it.

It is better that 100 guilty men go free than 1 innocent be be made to suffer wrongfully.

You made this point to say that it would be better to allow 100 guilty men to live than to kill 1 innocent. However, rzr's point was that those who escape from jail are very likely to commit their crimes - including murderers.

What if 100 guilty men are given life sentences in jail, while 1 innocent man was executed for a murder he did not commit? One of the guilty men escapes and kills one person. Thus, killing all 101 men would have been an equally good option. Had the escaped guilty man killed two people, killing all 101 men would have been the better option.

Obviously, I'm just making up numbers here, but I think that to answer this question accurately we must know the comparison between the number of people who escape from jail and repeat their crimes [they need not be violent] and the number of people who are wrongly executed. The latter is impossible to know, but doesn't the existence of the conundrum disprove your theory? If you can prove that it is more beneficial to let guilty men live, your point is still valid, but until then, it seems to be a moot point in the context of this conversation.

Wait...the death penalty is for people who do the most horrible and heinous things...and a plus for you is that it is a kind mercy for them? If life in prison is "worse" than death, one assumes you'd be all for life in prison to further punish the murderers and rapists.

Which is the real goal here? To be sure the innocent is protected, or to be sure we are kind to the guilty? If they are guilty and the choice is between life in prison or death, why are we considering which is nicer to the murderers and rapists? They can either rot in prison and either

A. Be happy that they didn't get put to death
or
B. Hate their life in prison and wish they had been killed.

At least if they are put to death, the issue of their feelings is, erm, negated.


I feel that if there is sufficient evidence to declare a man guilty for certain terrible crimes [rape, at least 1st-degree murder], he should be considered eligible for the death penalty. [I admit that I am subjective to bias for the crime of rape, since my girlfriend was raped.]

[RB_IcePh0enix]

Re: The Death Penalty

Killing criminals actually costs more money then putting them in jail which in my opinion is reason enough to not have the death penalty. Plus, I think nobody should have the right to decide whether someon dies.

And to tehddrkid, criminals generally don't escape from prison. Actually, make that almost never escape from prison.

[OMG its HIM]

Re: The Death Penalty

my thing is, if you kill someone, you get killed.
but if it something like shooting someone, and they are paralayzed, they should be senteced to life in prison without parol

[RB_IcePh0enix]

Re: The Death Penalty

So you're saying that once the executioner kills the criminal he should be killed, so on and so forth?

[1961casey]

Re: The Death Penalty

For many obvious reasons, justice is not left to the individual. Instead there is in place, a cold blooded, rational system that is not supposed to exhibit favoritism designed to look at the facts of a case and come to a conclusion about the guilt or innocence of an individual. In the final analysis, it is not an individual that carries out an execution but an emotionless institution. The main purpose being to make sure that a sentence is carried out rationally. In so doing it cannot be said that a murderer is murdered because it is case of justice being meted out, not revenge.
Devonian states several times that he does not trust a fallible human system to carry out justice, but that is exactly what the justice system is supposed to do with all of its checks and balances. What one lawyer attempts to do is countered by another which is moderated by a judge in front of a panal of impartial jurors consisting of the defendants peers. Granted it is not perfect but if we are to distrust the justice system's conclusions should we not then dismiss all of its convictions for all crimes for the same reasons?
I admit, that although I do believe that the death penalty should be used, I still fear the possibility of mistakes. On the other hand, I know that there are circumstances in which the guilt of the offender is beyond all doubt. In such circumstances the death penalty should be available.
Finally, on a side note, the correct expression should be "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and no more." This expression from the Old Testament of the Bible was revolutionary in its time in that no longer could a wealthy, prestigious or 'pillar of the community' exact more from someone who has offended him than what was the actual damage. In other words it set the upper limit for justice, not the minimum. To apply this to a case of murder would be to state that a life for a life is the maximum sentence. I know that it is a bit redundant but that is what justice is supposed to be about.

[OMG its HIM]

Re: The Death Penalty

So you're saying that once the executioner kills the criminal he should be killed, so on and so forth?

lol no, the executioner shouldnt be killed, because he should have law thats states he can kill the killer