Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"

[Corbin Wells]

Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundalmentally good or evil?"

Humans are not fundamentally "evil or fundamentally "good" because these were just words that describe actions that appeal either positively or negatively to someone or to some majority and because of this (and with the invention of morals through religion) we humans have used good and evil simply to describe what we think fits us or most of us in terms of what's to like and not like.

Without the words good or evil we would merely have action. And that is what all people do, no matter what it is, it is just an action(if you are willing to void yourself of any emotion and void the act of any symbolism or meaning).

Nietzsche.

[Zythus]

Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundalmentally good or evil?"

The unfortunate are weak, let them starve, or let them fight among themselves for what they have available. The strong need not concern themselves with the weak, because since morality is a construct and life has no intrinsic purpose except to be lived, the strong should be concerned primarily with simply exercising their will to power and acquiring things that they want.

Thank you Devonin, this basically sums up my opinion on Africa and the poor countries who deserves to be forsaken.

Let's try this again: What is the purpose of human existance? Why are we here, what is the meaning of life?

Nihilist says: There isn't one. We're a cosmic accident like everything else, there is no intrinsic meaning to human existence, we're no different from any other animal that happened to have developed.

If there is no purpose or meaning to life, then there can be no morality, because in order for something to be morally good or morally bad, you need an objective definition of what is good and what is bad to appeal to. Having an objective definition of what is good and what is bad to appeal to means that you are describing a purpose for humanity: To live according to that definition. As a Nihilist, you deny that there is such a definition, thus you deny that there is any morality, thus you deny that anything can be good or evil.

And yet -you- say that there -is- such a thing as evil, because humans are evil. This is what I want you to reconcile for me.

I'll leave it to you to come up with the term for partial Nihilist. You say that existence has no meaning and we are no different from any other animal. I agree. But to be existing, a common goal is to keep on existing, in other words, to live. So in my opinion, the purpose for existence? There is none. What is our goal then if theres no purpose? To continue to survive, just like any other animal out there. So to speak in the context of having a morality or not, simply, do you destroy life? or do you preserve it? which is the basic fundamentals of defining good and bad. One doesn't need to have a profound existence to be able to distinguish between the good and bad.

[devonin]

Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundalmentally good or evil?"

To continue to survive, just like any other animal out there. So to speak in the context of having a morality or not, simply, do you destroy life? or do you preserve it? which is the basic fundamentals of defining good and bad. One doesn't need to have a profound existence to be able to distinguish between the good and bad.

How moral and emotional of you to give a crap about the life of anything else.

You've misquoted the purpose of life by speaking too generally. The purpose of MY life is to ensure the success of MY life. I destroy all life it is in my interests to destroy, and preserve all life it is in my interests to preserve.

If you insist on applying the words "good" and "bad" to actions in spite of claiming there is no such thing as a moral scale on which to evaluate actions, then "Good" actions are ones which lead to the betterment and prolonging of my own life, personally, and "bad" actions are ones which do not lead to a betterment and prolonging of my own life, or actively worsen my life.

Giving money to charity is a bad action by these standards, because it means I have less resources with which to provide for myself, unless by giving money to charity, I gain the respect and admiration of those around me to the extent that my social gains improve my life more than my fiscal loss.

If you truly believe that there is no greater purpose to life, and appeal solely to the drive of all life to survive and perpetuate ITSELF then you have even -less- of a care for those things that don't impact your life than anybody else would.

It's a foolish and utopian idea to try and claim that "all life" as a community is driven to perpetuate the existance of "all life" as a community. A lion is going to kill and eat you if you are there and it is hungry. It cares only about the survival of a) itself and b) those around it that contribute to the life of itself. Everything else is a resource to be expended as much or as little as needs to be to make your life better.

According to the "Life cares only about the drive to 'keep on existing'" line of reasoning, if I presented you with the means by which every 100 people you killed, you would live one more year of healthy successful life, you should unabashedly start bringing about the deaths of everyone around you that wasn't contributing to the quality of your life.

[rising crescent]

Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"

Hi, Nice to meet you here.
Since I am newbie here.

Hope to find goods here from you all..


First, your avatar is beautiful, @zythus..
I am stunned.



Let me representative from religious side.

I am a moslem.

If you ask "are humans fundamentally good and evil?"

the answer is : "They are BOTH EXIST WITHIN HUMANS"

but first, we must define what GOODS and Whats EVIL/BAD here...

GOODS, in ISlam, are all qualities follow guidance from GOd, they are Blessed from Gentle Light of God.

Evil/BAds are all qualities selves (nafs in arabic word) who wants other than God, or conflict or reject.

Speaking about human, what is Human anyway?
The Journey of all human .. in this world, is QUEST.... Quest for knowledge...
Thats "THe Answer of "Your Life"

[rising crescent]

Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"

I myself is a misanthropist, seeing absolutely no good in the existence of humans.

dont follow lucifer path who reject humans and wants to destroy them, you might be blame God for His creation of man even do you still dont know the Hidden Real value behind human.

Not even angels dont know real value of human at first "Testing"

holeheartedly, I would agree to an apocalypse starting with me if the demise of ALL humans can be guaranteed. Just to kill off one or two insignificant specks would accomplish nothing

dont get blinded by anger

Therefore, I believe misanthropy,

is misantriophy new religion?

What we see here is the amplification of the destructiveness of humans. By who? Themselves.

yes,all of it come from dark souls within human as beast of knowledge and/or beast of religion.

Ok, so every malice of humankind can be justified with, "Oh its instinct, nothing we can do about it." ? Put it simply, are human actions destructive and belligerent, or are they nice and composed and peaceful?

And no, I don't have an answer to what we should do as humans, but I think humans should get their heads down from the clouds and know the position they are in. It is because of this ego, it corrupts mankind and escalates to disastrous events.

then you must made Long Journey to Find the True Answer, and obviuously...misantropy is wrong way ... based on the fact you dont know your true values as purpose life on this planet

You've misquoted the purpose of life by speaking too generally. The purpose of MY life is to ensure the success of MY life. I destroy all life it is in my interests to destroy, and preserve all life it is in my interests to preserve.

If you insist on applying the words "good" and "bad" to actions in spite of claiming there is no such thing as a moral scale on which to evaluate actions, then "Good" actions are ones which lead to the betterment and prolonging of my own life, personally, and "bad" actions are ones which do not lead to a betterment and prolonging of my own life, or actively worsen my life.

thats alright devonin.

@Zythus still have her/his true voice in heart to find the truth

Nietzsche's view I also agree to, but weak and strong should be more appropriately named Fortunate and Unfortunate. Only the sore loser would complain, hence proving that they are indeed weak. It is a privileged and luxury to exercise superiority

this is how the beast of knowledge thinks. they see prey the weal is natural..but in beautiful value that is beast act where stroing eat weak not protect them,help them.

even nietze lost in his way .

[devonin]

Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"

Welcome to Critical Thinking. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume perhaps that your first language isn't English? Not to be too critical or anything, but the CT forum requires a certain degree of articulation and clarity to allow useful discussion to take place, and I'm finding it quite hard to decode what you're actually saying. Perhaps putting a little more effort into spelling and punctuation would help you make your points more clearly?

[rising crescent]

Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"

Welcome to Critical Thinking. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume perhaps that your first language isn't English? Not to be too critical or anything, but the CT forum requires a certain degree of articulation and clarity to allow useful discussion to take place, and I'm finding it quite hard to decode what you're actually saying. Perhaps putting a little more effort into spelling and punctuation would help you make your points more clearly?

I am sorry if My english is bad.
First, I am from Eastern. In Indonesia for exactly.

I am understand why is hard for you/or other for understand, but the Debating finding the truth about critical thinking-religion for exactly ...
is teaching and learn knowledge to think and to be spiritual, thats why is HARD to be Understand like way we undertand minds fruits like science and technology, they need Times for gain knowledge. Religion Knowledge are much have like this.

I want to share what East who have Richness in Spiritual and Intuitive Kniowledge for western like or other or @thread starter.

I want you,All know... dont jump conclusion too fast....without testing your believing with others... There are many diversity persons,groups,and others in east which west dont have.

If you want learn the truth, you must believe, REligion Teach you,.. To make you EASIER in Life not Heavier..

I think the problem not in a certain degree of articulation and clarity to allow useful discussion to take place, but in "Construction in Minds and Selfes/Soul"
Learning Religion also about Growing your Construction Minds and Soul.
Fail about it means someone minds and soul is heading wrong direction.

but i am sorry if i share the knowledge that other 'Not ready" for it.
I will be careful for now and try to convert in the languange others can think and understand about it.

for @thread starter...
this world and wider than you think, dont curse your life and other life and value..

[Zythus]

Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"

I don't have much time for the forums, this is my first post in almost a month.

Crescent, I did not say I hate life or anything so specific and easy. I am arguing that humans are fundamentally deleterious. I really do not want to bring religion into this topic as it cannot be used as a standalone argument that is not deemed dubious by nonbelievers, that is to say, religion isn't valid to be used as a statement.
About misanthropy, I'll have to refresh my mind for a bit before I can continue where I left off, Devonin. I'm not finished with morality yet.

[devonin]

Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"

but i am sorry if i share the knowledge that other 'Not ready" for it.
I will be careful for now and try to convert in the languange others can think and understand about it.

We're perfectly capable of understanding the ideas you want us to think about. What we're having trouble with is decoding your poor grammar and syntax to actually tell what words you are trying to get us to think about.

[FictionJunction]

Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"

Misanthropy can be considered in more ways than one as its source may vary from person to person. I have a particular issue with the cause of your own misanthropy: a general distaste for what you consider to be the negative side of 'human nature.'

I'm going to go out on a limb and just tell you all I'm an existentialist and I follow Sartrean Existentialism to the dot. That said, I do not believe there is such a thing as the inherently good or the inherently evil. Existence precedes essence thus our choices mold who we and our society become, and the meaning of our lives as individuals and a community. It is our duty as humans beings - we are essentially condemned - to choose our values and morals for ourselves and our fellow man in an attempt to create a more stable and prosperous society. I can understand why one would be a misanthropist under this scheme as even I have lost faith in most people. However, that doesn't allow you to disregard your duty to humanity or to be discouraged by your fellow man's faults. You're using misanthropy as an escape from a problem that cannot be easily solved.

It's easier to say that a man is born a coward, it makes for an excellent excuse for his otherwise unacceptable cowardice. People start having issues when they consider they are an actual part of the problem. It's harder to accept you are a coward because you chose to be one. I'm just surprised you've accepted to eliminate yourself along with the rest of humanity in fear of having your beliefs debunked. Do you not feel you have a sense of responsibility towards your fellow human being? To fix this so-called mess? If not, you're just another part of the problem. I just commend you to acknowledge that you, as your fellow man, the sole reason for your misanthropy, chose to be as you are. Oh, the irony.

[rising crescent]

Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"

I don't have much time for the forums, this is my first post in almost a month.

Crescent, I did not say I hate life or anything so specific and easy. I am arguing that humans are fundamentally deleterious. I really do not want to bring religion into this topic as it cannot be used as a standalone argument that is not deemed dubious by nonbelievers, that is to say, religion isn't valid to be used as a statement.
About misanthropy, I'll have to refresh my mind for a bit before I can continue where I left off, Devonin. I'm not finished with morality yet.

You Cannot Defy/Deny into this topic without study it first,rethink first.. .
You Never Found the True Answer as long as seek outside the religion.

If you still reject for later,it up to you, but you Cannot Reject without strong arguent minds and soul and defeat religionist's arguments and explanation.

I have encountered so many rejections, but NONE of them defeat ours arguments and explanation... they are confuse, great DOUBTS..like in phil collins songs : they just dont TRUST WHAT THEY CANNOT EXPLAIN.'

the question for now : why not study religion from religionist explaining who understand it first?

i am understand you see the religion not valid as statement...for now.

our existences...for Religionist.. is give Right Explanations about religion with best acceptance for recipients...for all others especially nonbelievers.

for moderator, please dont kick me out from this topic/forum.
if you all wants to see The CRITICAL THINKING From Religionst side..


@TS
I see ...
you see human is deleterious...
now why question? do you know why human is deleterious...?
I am sure you dont know the answer
if humans is such dirties,more beast than animal..... is THERE The Way to Purify them??
the answer... there is a way, even it exceed the expectations.
because its not only purify but also bring Light from Heaven into earth in the Name of God. of course it needs process that can turned human bestiality inside into right personality inside that God wants to bring out the humans from their darkness hell inside into HIS LIght Protection Gentleness Safetyness by Construct their own personality from His Signs in Chronicle...

i am understand why religion is so hard to be understand by rational minds trapped in five senses and brains as their faith..that they..including me destroyed my own souls sellves and minds if i have faith to it.

but when i study religion step by step ...intuitively not rationally...
I can deduction religion is some simple term explanations. it can analyze step by step.. but remember..IT ONLY DEDUCTION not true learning religion, because religion is about construct minds and souls not study as minds fruits like study science and technology... for simple explanation, your minds and soul is growing when you FOUND right knowledge about secrets life in religion by your own Creativity. Nobody can teach religion...even prophet cannot teach it directly,they only can show the Journey....
students in The Journey that they must Walk within that Found the ANswer at the end...because only God can do/teach it.

If you/other reject it (after they accept the lessons and explanation who will bring the right path) and still walk the path, They bring themselves into their own destruction at the end of journey..
so, who will blame for it? their ownself or they blame God/other??

We're perfectly capable of understanding the ideas you want us to think about. What we're having trouble with is decoding your poor grammar and syntax to actually tell what words you are trying to get us to think about

dont treat words as mathematics languange, dont use rational minds languange to learn religions.

use intiuitive,symbolic languange to bring diversity reality inside the words, and try to understand within the times..

[devonin]

Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"

Oh god, it's like Coberst with worse spelling and grammar.

YOU HAVE TO MAKE SENSE IF YOU WANT PEOPLE TO MAKE SENSE OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

You aren't being metaphorical, you aren't being symbolic, you aren't being intuitive, you're using poor english and failing to communicate properly, there is a VERY key and important difference there.

[rising crescent]

Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"

Oh god, it's like Coberst with worse spelling and grammar.

YOU HAVE TO MAKE SENSE IF YOU WANT PEOPLE TO MAKE SENSE OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

You aren't being metaphorical, you aren't being symbolic, you aren't being intuitive, you're using poor english and failing to communicate properly, there is a VERY key and important difference there.

i am sorry with my bad spelling and grammar.
It is not easy to bring knowledge within religion in general languange, because the problems actually not in spelling and grammar, but ideas within the words

like I said, religion is about construction minds and selves, fail to understand ..Prove the minds in mess "constructions and head wrong directions"

religion is like Windows as operation inteligence system which operate the body is centralized in brain as Artificial inteligence constructed by cells build up from essence foods brings out from lands.

you are good debater, i still dont know your minds constructions, but from your direct critics on me, show little to me

in order to undertsand,..
First ZERO YOUR MINDS... and Learn NEw Minds Construction Developing form The Signs originate from Holy Book in times cannot determined....

like :
Light Shine in Darkness.. but darkness cannot understand it... - as long in darkness

[devonin]

Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"

Let's try this one more time: The problem IS in spelling and grammar because you are bad at both of them, and it makes trying to read what you want to say really annoying and difficult.

You can easily discuss religion in general language, we've done it many times on this forum and will do so many times more.

You'll make an actual effort to "use general language" like the rules of the forum dictate you have to or you'll just have to take a break from posting here until you manage to figure out a way to do it.

" Learn NEw Minds Construction Developing form The Signs originate from Holy Book in times cannot determined" for example is a statement that simply makes no actual sense as a sentence in English. These are the kinds of things you need to correct.

[Xx{Midday}xX]

Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"

What is your first language? Depending on what it is, I may be able to help.

Actually, this looks very similar to Shiki's English, except Shiki's conversation had nothing to do with religion. Same translator, I guess.

From the amount of time he/she is taking to post, I can tell that he's/she's using a very unreliable and inefficient translator... =/

I would love to stay, but I need to go now... =_= wasted post on my part.