Who owns the moon?

[tsugomaru]

Re: Who owns the moon?

The only reason I would ever want to be immortal is to live to see the day when we can space travel.

In any case, I believe that the moon should be equally divided amongst the countries who can actually colonize it. No country is going to be able to colonize a spot on the moon within a decade, much less the entire thing. It'd be foolish to claim the moon belongs to one single country like how it's foolish to claim that the Earth belongs to any one country, although it is clear who has the power and that's the people with the big guns. Same goes with the moon, the people who can colonize it will have power there.

~Tsugomaru

[MixMasterLar]

Re: Who owns the moon?

With OST locking everyone in place, I see someone breaking the rules and just going up there doing their own thing. America and China seem like they would if either had the time or funds to do it. I dont believe we'll have a meeting at the UN and decide what happens, I have a feeling that someone will simply make a move and force everyone's hands.

Frankly, you cant attempt to co-exist with everyone up there without someone playing cop, and who gets that honor? I doubt enough countries agree and get along long enought to get a World Space Police in action.

EDIT: Yeah what Tsugomaru just ninja'd me with pretty much sums it up. Those who think thay can break bad and take it will. now I know he ment more of a friendly division among the countries but someone somewhere is always going to disagree.

[JKPolk]

Re: Who owns the moon?

That's actually one of the points we make, is that someone is going to have to get the ball rolling. Unfortunately, right now the US has very little support for any moon activity as NASA is so focused on Mars missions. It looks like a European country, or China is going to get there first. This has major implications for any future endeavors the US might have on the moon.

[Relambrien]

Re: Who owns the moon?

If you do first come first serve, then who's to say "you can only own x amount of the moon?" And why shouldn't America simply use the argument that since there's already an American flag planted, it's our moon? Obviously because these would result in massive retaliation from neighboring countries. First come first serve would only result in a violent race with lots of subterfuge and could easily result in massive territorial wars both in space and on earth.

You should probably have read my post more carefully.

if you get to an area of the moon first and start utilizing it, then it's yours until you leave.

See the emphasis. America can't claim the moon is its own under such a system, but someone who goes up there and starts building can declare that the area on which the construction takes place is their own. People who go up for studies can claim the area as their own until the study is completed and they head back down.

Yes, there will be disagreements regarding just how much area around a construction site that someone can claim, but similar disagreements will occur with any system that divides the moon.

And like I said, the point in time where this becomes a problem is so far off, the world's politics are bound to be very different. I expect a much greater global government presence by the time moon colonization becomes a big deal, meaning everything should generally be easier to moderate.

[MixMasterLar]

Re: Who owns the moon?

probably a bit offtopic but if Relambrien's thoery of world peace isnt realized by the time that we want to go up there, then I would think that neither the US or Russia would "Break bad" and get the ball rolling. For some reason I want to think that both are busy with other things at the moment

[FestiveTurkey]

Re: Who owns the moon?

I don't think countries would be fighting over the moon. They'd be more interested in the North Pole with oil.

Although several pennants of the Soviet Union were scattered by Luna 2 in 1959 and by later landing missions, and U.S. flags have been symbolically planted on the Moon, no nation currently claims ownership of any part of the Moon's surface.

Russia and the U.S. are party to the Outer Space Treaty, which places the Moon under the same jurisdiction as international waters. This treaty also restricts the use of the Moon to peaceful purposes, explicitly banning military installations and weapons of mass destruction.

It's basically my thoughts on what has happened in the past and what has currently happened.

[JKPolk]

Re: Who owns the moon?

The moon holds a large amount of Helium 3, an isotope that is extremely rare on earth but one that scientists feel will be crucial in attaining sustainable, profitable fusion. One could easily make the argument that the moon is far more valuable as a fuel source than any oil pocket.

[Zythus]

Re: Who owns the moon?

From a more pessimistic perspective, governments can be quite evil.

I do believe in the future, space will be a new battleground for a kid with a new toy.
OST may be the legitimacy to prevent colonization of the moon, but governments will always be waiting for a chance to gain. A scapegoat is all they need to make a full blown war with the excuse they are "protecting the moon"
Heres an example:
A company goes up to the moon to find Helium3 and to mine. Russia and USA and China hears about this but is bound by the OST. Using the excuse to go protect the moon, they go up there and kick the company off, and then make a base there to "prevent any future mishaps". Other countries will fight for the same thing, to make a base. Then, as you can see, comes the unrest and then the war.
As JK said, the moon is indeed made of gold. By the time we begin lunar colonization, Earth's resources may just be depleted. Thus, all eyes are on the moon, yet bound by the OST. Taking advantage of the grey zone of the law, it is "justified."

[xinpig]

Re: Who owns the moon?

Do you think that any country will try to "Claim" the moon?

[devonin]

Re: Who owns the moon?

I think it is ridiculous to try and stake a claim to the moon, and while that won't stop anybody from trying, I don't think any first world power who hopes to have any kind of legitimacy would try to claim the moon. Coming from the US, UK, Russia, China, India, etc it would just be laughable.

I'd expect a second-rate power, say one that is newly come to nuclear capability with maybe a crappy space program they bought off of Russia might try it, in the hopes of forcing the super powers to acknowledge it. Maybe a North Korea, or something like that.

[jewpinthethird]

Re: Who owns the moon?

because it's currently impossible for a company to get anything into space without the government to back them.

This is incorrect. For the most part, multinational corporations are more powerful than a slow-acting democracy. Space travel will be privatized, like the airline industry, but no corporation will invest in it unless it would later prove to be profitable. Unfortunately, there is nothing on the moon that isn't here on Earth, so mining would be pointless and ridiculously expensive (the existence of Helium 3 in the regolith is hypothetical).

There's just no need to colonize the moon/solar system (yet).

[JKPolk]

Re: Who owns the moon?

The existence of Helium 3 in the regolith is not hypothetical as much as just very small (still much greater than any spots on earth, however). This is why they're planning on setting up whole mining operations rather than just gathering missions; they need to process huge amounts of regolith to get the H3 out.

[Zythus]

Re: Who owns the moon?

I find it skeptical to believe they will value the treaty in the future.
Treaty of Versailles? Yeah, pretty cool, along with WWII and Hitler and the holocaust.
As I said, I'm more to believe that governments and nations will try to take a dip into the "Grey zone" of the law. Laws are not always black and white, sometimes there are exceptions. All a nations got to do is to use it in their will.

And no Devonin, they might not attempt the feat as individual nations, they might as well band up to take the moon from each other.

(On another note, it would be ironic to pay for moonlight...)

[jewpinthethird]

Re: Who owns the moon?

"The Moon Treaty prevents the moon from becoming a source of international conflict."

So, no nation can claim the moon as it's own, but can someone declare their own nation on the moon, not affiliated with any Earthly governing body?

[devonin]

Re: Who owns the moon?

I find it skeptical to believe they will value the treaty in the future.
Treaty of Versailles? Yeah, pretty cool, along with WWII and Hitler and the holocaust.

Except that the treaties governing the moon were made, so far as I know, in relative good faith by all parties and don't advantage one nation over the other. The treaty of Versailles was crushingly anti-german and was arguably (and is argued by many historians) set up -specifically- to force eventual further conflict. Even those in England and France and Russia who wrote up the damn thing acknowledged that it was incredibly harsh to Germany and would have terrible effects on their economy. These are apples and oranges in terms of treaties. Also, Godwin's Law, you lose.

As I said, I'm more to believe that governments and nations will try to take a dip into the "Grey zone" of the law. Laws are not always black and white, sometimes there are exceptions. All a nations got to do is to use it in their will.

I'm pretty sure that a stipulation that "No nation may claim territory on the moon as their own" is pretty black and white. Arguements can be made around this and many scams exist (You can buy land on the moon from more than one company. They argue that since nobody yet owns it, its ownership is negotiable and anyone can simply stake a claim. Check the internet some time, I guarentee you that you can find companies making seemingly reasonable arguements that say you can buy parts of the moon in a way that is legally binding)

But I rather suspect that if -anything- is done with regards to building things on the moon etc. that international consensus will be more to treat the moon like they do Antarctica, which is simply nation-neutral, and anybody can set up shop there provided they aren't interfering with other people who are there already.

And no Devonin, they might not attempt the feat as individual nations, they might as well band up to take the moon from each other.

"Band up to take the moon from each other"? I'm not quite sure I follow that. Will they go "Hey, lets you and me become partners and then fight over the land"?

(On another note, it would be ironic to pay for moonlight...)

I'm not really sure any means exist to -stop- moonlight from being cast onto the Earth, and I'm REALLY sure no means exist to stop moonlight from being cast onto the earth for certain individuals who aren't paying for it.