TOP Players / Tier Requirements Thread - Updated 7/8/09

[windsurfer-sp]

Re: TOP Players / Tier Requirements Thread

Adding skill tokens and regular tokens to this will have to be done very carefully, and IMO the advantages are probably not going to outweigh the disadvantages. Either way I trust Jim and co. to get it right sooner or later and im not going to say that this will fall apart.

[Shashakiro]

Re: TOP Players / Tier Requirements Thread

I don't see adding tokens/stokens as a good thing at all, and I think it strays from the main point of this system...in fact, I would argue that continuing to add new songs at all is even unnecessary at this point. There are more than enough songs in the list now so that an adequate skill ranking can be made, and perhaps even too many. Once you start having token/stoken count, effort/activity level will start counting much more and that is NOT the point of this list.

[spinal_compression]

Re: TOP Players / Tier Requirements Thread

I don't see adding tokens/stokens as a good thing at all, and I think it strays from the main point of this system...in fact, I would argue that continuing to add new songs at all is even unnecessary at this point. There are more than enough songs in the list now so that an adequate skill ranking can be made, and perhaps even too many. Once you start having token/stoken count, effort/activity level will start counting much more and that is NOT the point of this list.

If we add more songs to the list we could just increase the number of points needed to meet each teir. This would allow for more points to be made by less skilled members (such as myself). On the other hand it would seem tedious for more advanced players to go out and AAA a challenging song just to get the points for it.

[MrRubix]

Re: TOP Players / Tier Requirements Thread

I agree with Shash. Implying that skilled players should be getting certain skill tokens anyway is a confounding variable in the analysis of skill -- you should stick with songs that everyone has access to.

[blindreper1179]

Re: TOP Players / Tier Requirements Thread

idk, adding some does seems like a good idea.

with the tokens. they are really easy to find with/with out help.

and some skill tokens, you do get with out doing anything.

the only skill tokens that wouldn't be as acceptable as others IMO would be like starman, or the s.t. from burnout, stuff like that.

[Reach]

Re: TOP Players / Tier Requirements Thread

I'm really not seeing what's wrong with skill token songs. If the tokens are doing their job (some of them are not D: obviously) then they should take skill to get. Thus, since this list ranks skill I see no reason why the hard skill token songs shouldn't be on the list. Saying that it somehow requires whoring to get the tokens is ridiculous IMO. If you're good enough to get them, the majority of them can be gotten first try with a few exceptions for the stupid tokens.

If anything, AAA bonus points are the points that involve whoring and don't reflect skill. They require you to go and play all kinds of easy songs that are obviously irrelevant to skill level. Don't give me 'oh wowz AAA'ing an FMO song to get otaku speedvibe isn't fair because it requires skill and whorrrrrrring' and then go ahead and give tons of points for total number of AAA's =/

I also don't see why we shouldn't update the list with more songs. It's also a list of active, skilled players. If it didn't have *anything* to do with activity and was all skill, well then, I could create an artificial list for you right now because I think it's pretty obvious who the most skilled players are. Larger lists also give more song selection and thus keep players busier. Playing the same songs over and over certainly isn't fun.


edit: regular tokens are a different matter. I think the locations of some of them are very unfair and obviously have nothing to do with ffr skill level. Thus, I would either exclude them from this list OR reveal to people the secret to getting all of the tokens effortlessly (i'm sure most people that have all the tokens used this to get them >__>)

[blindreper1179]

Re: TOP Players / Tier Requirements Thread

words above me

i'm going to go with you.

but still standing by my word also.

not relavent, but you explain things well.

[MrRubix]

Re: TOP Players / Tier Requirements Thread

Actually I am editing my post. If the system is trying to measure all accounts of skill, then by all means it should account for everything. Otherwise there's no way to further distinguish past a certain point. Technically whoring is not an acceptable rebuttal because that's up to the player as to whether or not he has to whore to achieve. It'd be like saying "The requirements for getting a gold medal in this particular marathon is ridiculous -- you have to whore the track over and over until you get better at it! We should change the rules." Another way of phrasing "whoring" is "practice makes perfect," which is something perfectly acceptable if you find that practice is needed. Whoring just tends to have negative connotation.

I'd like to address Reach: "If anything, AAA bonus points are the points that involve whoring and don't reflect skill." This is only true if Person A has X AAA's as does person B, but many of A's song are harder than B's. You could place weights on the AAA's -- easier songs contribute less to AAA skill gauge. Therefore the counter for AAA's should not be on an absolute fixed scale independent of difficulty. This way, even if A and B have the same number of AAA's, A will have a higher AAA bonus for doing harder songs.

[alainbryden]

Re: TOP Players / Tier Requirements Thread

Nah. Unlocking skill tokens is meant to give the game a new dimension. For what this is meant to measure, it works fine. It's not meant to measure you're ability or drive to meet strange requirements such as 20 more averages than goods.

Rank people on their skill at hitting arrows accurately, not their dedication to this particular arrow tapping game and all it's little challenges.

[Rebirth0]

Re: TOP Players / Tier Requirements Thread

Reach said pretty much everything I wanted to say.

As for regular tokens, we know those are the unfair ones if anything is. A lot of the tokens are incredibly easy to find, while some others do take a bit of thinking to figure out. Even if you can't figure out how to get the token, people could either ask someone who has the token to give them the link, or they could search the internet for an answer (because we know people have posted token info). Both of those ways are a little pathetic, but we know someone is always going to use those ways to get a token.

We won't be adding many normal tokens anyway. At least not right now. I think the only ones we're adding to the point requirement list are:

Takecore of Yourself
Ride Out
Exciting Hyper Highspeed Star v2 (Possibly not adding)
Attack of One Minute (Possibly not adding)
Sunny Star Carnival
Kakke Ecko (I guess since its out and its a 10 on the difficulty scale, we'll add it too)

Ok thats kinda a lot from a list of 22 songs (excluding vrofl). Still, people are going to have most if not all of these tokens because of the amount of time they've had to collect them, and the fact that all of the people that are worthy of being on the list will most likely have all of the tokens anyway because they want more songs to play and AAA.

[adlp]

Re: TOP Players / Tier Requirements Thread

tier 3 pls

Tier Points for adlp
Expand/Collapse All Requirements

Tier Points: 231 (231 + 0 for 28 AAAs)

[Summerschool]

Re: TOP Players / Tier Requirements Thread

I completely agree with shash. Why do so many people want more added to the system? In no way will adding tokens increase this system's accuracy.

[Adamaja456]

Re: TOP Players / Tier Requirements Thread

I completely agree with shash. Why do so many people want more added to the system? In no way will adding tokens increase this system's accuracy.

I agree

I like the set of songs that are currently in the system.
It shouldn't keep being altered whenever a Challenging song become public

[Doug31]

Re: TOP Players / Tier Requirements Thread

What is inaccurate about whoring is not that it's practice makes perfect. That's not what's wrong with it at all. For now, I'd say my skill level has come to pretty much a constant level. Now, let's say when I play CIA Rave, I get an average of 20 goods with a standard deviation of 5 goods and a normal distribution. This would mean that if I played it enough, I could eventually AAA, but I'm too lazy to play it enough to get better than my current 8 good score. According to this system, I'd need to whore it until I got all the way up to the AAA, then it would claim that I were a better player, when that didn't make me any better of a player IMO. Now, as if it didn't take me long enough to get that one AAA, I'd have to do the same on every single freaking song. With AAA bonus, it actually includes every song in the game, unless tokens/skill tokens aren't included in AAA bonus, which I'm not really sure. Still, this way, I could improve by at least 150 tier points from where I'm at now just by whoring everything enough to get whatever is the absolute best I'm capable of on every song, even if I didn't get the slightest bit better in doing so.

Edit: and the more songs that are added to the system, especially stuff like skill tokens and that AAA bonus that isn't an accurate measure of skill, the worse this becomes.

[MrRubix]

Re: TOP Players / Tier Requirements Thread

Doug31: You imply that one's average may not be close to AAA. "Skill" then is a function is where your mean lies, even if the AAA is a few SD's away, correct? You also assume that if you play lots your skill will not increase, whereas this is not true for others (although I will admit that there is diminishing returns with time with respect to skill, I grant you that, although I do not think it is so extreme in the majority of cases). Would you then prefer a weighted average derived from every play (ie. say you get on average 5 Goods on CIA Rave, as opposed to an absolute top score because you happen to AAA CIA Rave once on a lucky run)?