Overall Rank vs. Average Level Rank

**Tasselfoot** · 08-15-2006, 07:33 AM

Re: Overall Rank vs. Average Level Rank

Average rank is the sum of your rank on all the leves (from levelrank.php) and then divided by the number of levels. I explain this in more detail in another thread somewhere...

Overall rank is merely a listing of who has more Grandtotal.

So, both are compared to others, but Average is the only one that is compared to others based on skill. Overall is just who plays more FFR.

And if it helps, you can see that only about 20 people are under 110 average rank, telling you how difficult that feat is.

Finally, it is impossible to rank people based on average rank. I already asked LD about it. It would require a database query of 940,000 * 145, or 136 million queries (LD told me it was around 3 billion... but I'm not sure how he came to that number). So, it would take a few HOURS to run that query, which is not worth it in anyone's eyes.

Overall rank, on the other hand, would just be 1 query to run... and LD has just been lazy in not adding a list of the top100 in overall rank.

**windsurfer-sp** · 08-15-2006, 07:52 AM

Re: Overall Rank vs. Average Level Rank

Originally posted by Tasselfoot

Finally, it is impossible to rank people based on average rank. I already asked LD about it. It would require a database query of 940,000 * 145, or 136 million queries (LD told me it was around 3 billion... but I'm not sure how he came to that number). So, it would take a few HOURS to run that query, which is not worth it in anyone's eyes.

Overall rank, on the other hand, would just be 1 query to run... and LD has just been lazy in not adding a list of the top100 in overall rank.

Thanks for that but why isn't it just 940,000 queries? I mean its already orgainsing everyone with an average Level Rank so woldn't It just sort by Avg. Level Rank? (I know your right im just trying to understand it)

Couldnt it also just sort it down to ranking anyone w/ an average level rank <10,000 or 5000?

IM sure if t could be done it would be done but on the other hand the top 100 Overall hasn't been....

**sertman** · 08-15-2006, 09:23 AM

Re: Overall Rank vs. Average Level Rank

It all depends. I don't think that either of them really show skill. Level Rank shows the level of patience that you have. If you have a high level rank, you have the patience to play through Trip to the Moon 10 times just to get an AAA on it. Overall Rank just shows the level of experience that you have.

If you're looking for skill, look at Scottish's list. It's pretty accurate. Contrary to some people's beliefs, hitting offbeat notes isn't a skill. It's a matter of patience. The point of the game is to hit the notes accurately to the music. If the note is offbeat, you might as well play it with sound off, because there is no need for the sound to be there (100bb, trip to the moon, most of the songs from like 2003).

**Shashakiro** · 08-15-2006, 10:36 AM

Re: Overall Rank vs. Average Level Rank

um Trip to the Moon is onbeat lol, and if you need to play it 10 times to AAA it that just shows that you don't have skill to begin with.

Hitting offbeat notes is a skill, it's just not a skill that should have to exist. Doesn't change the fact that it's a skill.

**sertman** · 08-15-2006, 11:28 AM

Re: Overall Rank vs. Average Level Rank

****, i meant Terror From Beyond. I get the two mixed up.

What I probably should have said is that AAAing an offbeat song is a skill that shouldn't even come close to the skill that it takes to AAA or SDG songs like FOTBB, so it shouldn't be treated as such. The problem with level rank is that someone like bill_clinton has a worse level rank than, say, Tass, even though they're not even close to being on the same level, but Tass has played all the songs. Does that make Tass a better player than bill_clinton? According to level rank, it does.

**meno_rocks123** · 08-15-2006, 12:02 PM

Re: Overall Rank vs. Average Level Rank

true, in a way.
alot of people just dont take the time to play the easier songs because they would rather be playing the hard songs and that affects their level rank stats. i still cant find stalled out and sushi bars even though i looked for about ten minutes.

**sertman** · 08-15-2006, 12:05 PM

Re: Overall Rank vs. Average Level Rank

second page of dance, i think

maybe it's the first

**Shashakiro** · 08-15-2006, 12:25 PM

Re: Overall Rank vs. Average Level Rank

Originally posted by sertman

****, i meant Terror From Beyond. I get the two mixed up.

What I probably should have said is that AAAing an offbeat song is a skill that shouldn't even come close to the skill that it takes to AAA or SDG songs like FOTBB, so it shouldn't be treated as such. The problem with level rank is that someone like bill_clinton has a worse level rank than, say, Tass, even though they're not even close to being on the same level, but Tass has played all the songs. Does that make Tass a better player than bill_clinton? According to level rank, it does.

This is a good point...bad ranks on the offbeats do tend to carry a lot more weight than they deserve.

Honestly though...if everyone DID play all the songs, including the easy ones, then average rank WOULD be an accurate measure of skill. It just isn't because people are too lazy/impatient to play the offbeat songs.

**sertman** · 08-15-2006, 12:46 PM

Re: Overall Rank vs. Average Level Rank

The offbeat songs are boring and not fun to play. It's not a matter of being lazy or not, it's a matter of having fun. Normally when I play FFR, it's to have fun, not to get that meaningless AAA/SDG on a song I could pass the day I started playing the game.

**itmorr** · 08-15-2006, 12:57 PM

Re: Overall Rank vs. Average Level Rank

Average Rank is an entirely different playing field from Overall Rank for reasons already mentioned. Where did the 145 come from?

**Tasselfoot** · 08-15-2006, 01:03 PM

Re: Overall Rank vs. Average Level Rank

there are 145 songs on FFR. so you'd have to query every person's rank on every song, which is how average rank is calculated. so you could not just do 940,000 queries of average rank, because you can't get average rank without doing the 145 queries for the person.

and average rank does have some meaning... just because many people choose not to go for it, *shrugs*. Some people are content competing only in the 100m dash, because they are the fastest in the world. Others compete in the Decathlon because they have taken the time needed to train and excel in 10 events. Clearly the top specialists in any of the 10 events would beat just about anyone in the decathlon, but they wouldn't stand a chance in most of the other 9 events. 2 different goals and skill sets.

**sertman** · 08-15-2006, 01:08 PM

Re: Overall Rank vs. Average Level Rank

Bad example tass, because the 10 events all weigh equal. The better example, I would think, would be a football team. The hard songs would be the quarterback, running back, linebackers, etc. You need to have good players in those areas to be a good team. Offbeat songs would be like the kicker, punter, return specialists, etc... not TOO important, but to push your team from good to great, you need them.

**itmorr** · 08-15-2006, 01:12 PM

Re: Overall Rank vs. Average Level Rank

Would it be possible to gather the top 1000 from each song and filter those results to compare averages of only users who are on every song's top1000 list or would that be too much load?

Edit--Nevermind, that would mean that when SotW's come out the whole list would be different. Maybe it would work with like a weekly trigger but something like that wouldn't be fair because it wouldn't include person if they haven't played a SotW yet.

**Shashakiro** · 08-15-2006, 02:06 PM

Re: Overall Rank vs. Average Level Rank

Originally posted by sertman

The offbeat songs are boring and not fun to play. It's not a matter of being lazy or not, it's a matter of having fun. Normally when I play FFR, it's to have fun, not to get that meaningless AAA/SDG on a song I could pass the day I started playing the game.

Lists based on skill aren't about how much fun you're having, they're about how good you are, and if you don't want to get/show your skill in a certain area of the game for whatever reason (like it not being fun for you or you not thinking it should be there) then it has to be assumed that you aren't skilled in that part of the game...and so your average skill goes down.

The best objective way of ranking players' skill is Average Rank. Subjective means (like the Top FFR Players thead) may be more accurate, but to be truly objective you have to take everything into account, including the offbeat songs.

Overall Rank vs. Average Level Rank

Overall Rank vs. Average Level Rank

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