A ton of terms to define charting mentalities

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  • Arch0wl
    Banned
    FFR Simfile Author
    • Dec 2002
    • 6344

    #1

    A ton of terms to define charting mentalities

    There are a lot of mentalities in discussing charts but 'objective'/'subjective' doesn't define every view. Here are some terms that can navigate charting views more easily:

    Rhythmic objectivism is the perspective the majority of chartmakers have, so by definition you probably have this perspective. It's the idea that your rhythms should be exactly as they are in the song, or match the song as closely as possible.

    Rhythmic subjectivism is the perspective that you are allowed to have notes in your file that don't exactly match the song's notes; this doesn't harm the quality of the file.

    Holism (in charting) is the perspective that your file's ups/downs should follow the song's ups/downs as a whole. You should keep in mind the song's intensity and how your file is varying from, or matching that intensity.

    Objective holism is the perspective that you should try to capture these ups/downs, but only with minimal variation from the notes that are actually in the song. This is a rhythmically subjective position, but only kind of.

    Subjective holism is the perspective that you're not limited by the notes that are actually in the song in capturing the ups/downs of the song. This allows for a great deal of rhythmic subjectivity.

    Rhythmic nihilism is a different mentality some people have where neither the ups/downs nor the exact rhythms matter.

    Physicalism (in charting) is the perspective where the chart prioritizes the physical movements of the player in relation to, or independent of, the song. This may be in line with, or opposed to, any of the above terms. The Legend of Max (the DDR chart) is good example of this.

    Quantizing is matching your rhythms to the nearest rhythm on a continuum of whatever quantity you've set (16ths/24ths/32nds) -- essentially as if you had used the "quantize" feature on Stepmania. This term already exists, but I've listed it here because I'm gonna elaborate on some other views.

    a scenario:

    Say you have a song which has an electronic rhythm of (mostly) 16ths. You've mapped this out and you're stepping vocals to it. A great deal of the vocals will fall on the 16ths, but some won't.

    For the ones that won't, you're going to create an awkward flam/gallop/grace note thing where the rhythms are way more intense than the song; the most memorable moment of the file may be an insignificant part of the verse where the rapper/vocalist gets ther vocals really wrong and creates a burst of awkward rhythms.

    So instead, you quantize it -- you match the closest note on whatever continuum you're using. Since the song is mostly 16ths and the rapper/vocalist is *trying* to rap in 16ths, you'd just shift the 32nds to 16ths. The player won't notice much difference, because they're already tapping to 16ths anyway. Their mind will be attuned to the electronic 16ths.

    Classifying this person as 'subjective' wouldn't do it because there's a lot of disagreement that could come about how subjective you're going to make it. Saying they're using 'subjective' charting mentalities is right, to a degree -- but they're not inventing notes to capture the mood of the song, just slightly varying from it. I'd describe a chart like this as an objective holist one.

    By contrast, a chart I made to this song has a gigantic 16th run in the climax of the song. There aren't actually 16ths in that part. But they're there because to do anything else would just not match the intensity of that climax, so that's a subjective holist chart.

    I recognize that some of these terms come off as pretentious, but I don't know any better way to describe the different mentalities that people have for how you should match button presses to music. So there you go.
    Last edited by Arch0wl; 04-13-2013, 01:48 PM.
  • Arch0wl
    Banned
    FFR Simfile Author
    • Dec 2002
    • 6344

    #2
    Re: A ton of terms to define charting mentalities

    oops. meant to put this in the general "Stepmania" forum.

    Comment

    • Wayward Vagabond
      Confirmed Heartbreaker
      FFR Simfile Author
      • Jul 2012
      • 5866

      #3
      Re: A ton of terms to define charting mentalities

      objective holist omg whhy are you labeling me

      Comment

      • Arch0wl
        Banned
        FFR Simfile Author
        • Dec 2002
        • 6344

        #4
        Re: A ton of terms to define charting mentalities

        Comment

        • icontrolyourworld
          Enjoy life!
          FFR Simfile Author
          • Oct 2007
          • 4193

          #5
          Re: A ton of terms to define charting mentalities

          Rhythmic subjectivism and Quantizing are mostly what i do i think xD

          Comment

          • Arch0wl
            Banned
            FFR Simfile Author
            • Dec 2002
            • 6344

            #6
            Re: A ton of terms to define charting mentalities

            thanks to whoever moved it

            Comment

            • Choofers
              FFR Player
              FFR Music Producer
              • Dec 2008
              • 6205

              #7
              Re: A ton of terms to define charting mentalities

              Originally posted by Arch0wl
              looks a lot like someone I went to church with

              Comment

              • stargroup100
                behanjc & me are <3'ers
                FFR Simfile Author
                FFR Music Producer
                • Jul 2006
                • 2051

                #8
                Re: A ton of terms to define charting mentalities

                I feel like these terms and definitions could be good but the explanations are unclear/weak

                also I'm not sure I would classify these as "perspectives"
                Rhythm Simulation Guide
                Comments, criticism, suggestions, contributions, etc. are all welcome.

                Piano Etude Demon Fire sheet music

                Comment

                • Arch0wl
                  Banned
                  FFR Simfile Author
                  • Dec 2002
                  • 6344

                  #9
                  Re: A ton of terms to define charting mentalities

                  I suspect the point of unclarity was "ups/downs" by which I meant "mood"; if not, feel free to suggest other points of unclarity. I'm down for improving my definitions.

                  Comment

                  • moches
                    FFR Player
                    • Aug 2005
                    • 3996

                    #10
                    Re: A ton of terms to define charting mentalities

                    it's always absolutely fascinating to try and boil this game down into a study. I don't have a lot to add but I'll ponder it and see if I can contribute anything.

                    Comment

                    • popsicle_3000
                      Legendary Noob
                      FFR Simfile Author
                      • Sep 2005
                      • 4641

                      #11
                      Re: A ton of terms to define charting mentalities

                      from the OP, looks like this thread belongs in CT

                      Originally posted by One Winged Angel
                      39,000 popsicles pro bg blue note arrow slayer whoa damn..
                      Originally posted by Xx{Midnight}xX
                      one way to stream them all
                      Originally posted by Xiz
                      Right after sex, it skillboosted me by +10 levels from like a 35-45 about. (Which then 15 min's later I got really tired and couldn't play anymore)

                      But then my lady friend got pissed off I was playing FFR instead of playing her. Then for the rest of the night she played the 'Only want me for my body' card and I didn't get to sleep with blankets that night.
                      Originally posted by thesunfan
                      replacing ifitypedhisnameaslargeashisnamesuggests,iwouldgetbanned with theelongatedaustrocanadian3000 (pop).
                      Originally posted by reuben_tate
                      Title: Popsicle Three

                      Thousand the farthest
                      He's gone in an official
                      Whoop hip hip hooray!
                      Originally posted by U.N. Owen
                      kjwkjw: "oh my god, Tosh. Post that in the thread."

                      @popsicle_3000:
                      Danger incoming
                      The popsicles are melting
                      Three thousand of them
                      Originally posted by Wayward Vagabond
                      you got to ease the topic into some conversation and let it go from there

                      dynam0: man friend that was an intense sm session right?
                      friend: haha yeah you really nailed those patterns
                      dynam0: yeah man kind of like how gay dudes nail other gay dudes in the ass!
                      friend: hey bro can i tell you something
                      dynam0 yeah man whats up?
                      friend: hypothetically speaking would you care if i was bisexual or maybe even gay?
                      dynam0: bro we shower together after sm sessions all the time and i'll still shower with you even if you are gay or w/e thats your thing just dont try to ram my ass HAHAHA
                      friend: thanks man
                      dynam0: no problem man
                      Originally posted by One Winged Angel
                      pop takin' time out of playing irl Trauma Center to check in on his fiffer buds (mm)
                      Originally posted by Xiz
                      Well, Popsicle won every award this year so it was canceled.

                      Comment

                      • Arch0wl
                        Banned
                        FFR Simfile Author
                        • Dec 2002
                        • 6344

                        #12
                        Re: A ton of terms to define charting mentalities

                        it's a tossup, for sure. the people who have thought the most about charts, cumulatively, will be in Stepmania; the people most willing to think about charts in this way will be in CT though.

                        Comment

                        • Ohaider
                          FFR Veteran
                          • Jun 2012
                          • 2893

                          #13
                          Re: A ton of terms to define charting mentalities

                          Pretty fascinating

                          Comment

                          • Nick Skyline
                            Retired from VSRGs
                            • Sep 2012
                            • 530

                            #14
                            Re: A ton of terms to define charting mentalities

                            I think I may have something to contribute here...actually, I'll see if I can add on to what Arch0wl has already put.

                            DISCLAIMER: I may not know what I'm talking about.

                            I had to split this into 3 posts because it was way too long.

                            1/3

                            RO (Rhythmic Objectivism) - Only notes that perfectly match the song are allowed to be in the file. Nothing else counts, and if the sounds in the song are perfectly quantized then the arrows in the file should be quantized to the same amounts. A lot of simfile authors tend to share this viewpoint, although the meaning of "Objective" may differ from one simfile author to another. Usually, this is the way files are meant to be made and if your file doesn't live up to the (usually high) standards of whoever's putting the pack together then it gets rejected.

                            RS (Rhythmic Subjectivism) - Step the file however you want. This is how I recall files being made back in '05 when I wasn't around. You would make a file, there were no serious restrictions in play (the file just had to be enjoyable...maybe Index-friendly, although there were a few files that weren't, but they were still fun to play back then and some of them are still fun to play now) Note that not every arrow has to match the song millisecond for one-ninety-second.

                            H (Holism) - When listening to a song, you may notice that it has a "mood" to it, or "ups" and "downs", as Arch pointed out. And when the song calms down and/or the band starts playing slower, you could halve the BPM of the song for the time being. And when they start going full force again, you can return the BPM to where it was (A good idea is to select the region wherein the band plays softer or slower, hit Enter, then go to Tempo and select Compress x2). Sometimes the general speed and force or intensity of the song can influence how dense the chart is going to be. Allow me to bring out TV Tropes' "Mohs Scale of Rock and Metal Hardness" to demonstrate here.

                            The scale goes from 1 (Most pop music) to a possible 11 (Heaviest and most indiscernible form of Death Metal, as well as most Grindcore), with most of the rock music we step falling into the heavier half of the scale. Judging by the level of intensity of a song you would be charting, if you were using holism, I would assume that Level 1 would be underlayered like hell (unless you were stepping something ridiculously glitchy and Breakcore/like), and Level 11 would be the complete opposite. But listening to the songs in that video, how would I step "Demanufacture" by Fear Factory, for example (which is an 8 on this scale)? It's some fast-paced Industrial Metal. That means I may end up doing some layering, but with what instruments and to what extent?

                            VH (Reverse Holism) - Then again, the mood of the song doesn't have to match your chart's difficulty. There are some difficult files to some rather calm songs (Undiscovered Colors, right here on FFR), just as there are simple files to songs that would scale a 9 on the Mohs Scale of Rock and Metal Hardness (This file). There's a double bass pedal, or maybe a blast beat going at around 240 BPM and you don't feel like stepping it? That's perfectly fine. Want to step it on a different difficulty anyway? Perfectly acceptable.

                            OH (Objective Holism) - So, if you were going to step a verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus pop song, after the first chorus was stepped you would copy and paste all the notes in the 8-16 bar section, starting from where the second chorus begins. And you would copy and paste that section into the third chorus, leaving little to no variation between each part. So you would only have to step three sections of the song, copy and paste, and make minor changes depending on whether or not the vocalist matches his words to whatever arrows you've laid down. Example of a chart like this would be WTFBrandon's Super Bass from FFRCP Winter 2011.

                            CONTINUED IN NEXT POST
                            How Differences in Communication Norms Can Cause Interpaiensronsal Conflict - by dAnceguy117
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                            • Nick Skyline
                              Retired from VSRGs
                              • Sep 2012
                              • 530

                              #15
                              Re: A ton of terms to define charting mentalities

                              2/3

                              SH (Subjective Holism) - to spell out some completely random things (i.e. I'm playing a DnB file, and there are no notes for about 20-30 seconds while I see mines spell out "PSY X MOCHES 4 LIFE" and then we get back to the action). But in SH, you're not limited by what's in the song, and can make as many changes to each of the patterns when a certain part of a song repeats as you damn well please, or you could re-step it in a different manner. So you would then have to ask yourself, "What sequence of arrows can I put in that are going to help me capture the mood of this song?" All you would have to do is experiment with the sounds you're given and come up with an expressive chart for them. In Subjectivity, you don't have to match up the arrows perfectly, but rather just get them kind of close.

                              Then again, some people on here will say that there are some songs aren't just cut out to deserve the Stepmania treatment because it's been done to death by hundreds of simfile authors, no one has heard of it (the few that have may tell you about said song, and you can decide for yourself whether or not it'd make a good simfile), or because it's generally regarded by the public as a bad song (but would still make an interesting dump file IMO). Therefore just about everything that can be done, and shouldn't be done with the file have already been done. Want to step TTFAF at 141 BPM (more on this later)?

                              P (Physicalism) - The player's movement (assuming they're not using a bar) is prioritized over the actual rhythms of the song. The player would normally assume that they would have to ("Paranoia" from DDR 1st Mix as an example) spin in place when they see a 1342 or a 1243 when you can just move your legs back and forth in time with the arrows (Then again, that's how the game wants you to do it even though DDR does not and has never detected body movement).

                              OP (Objective Physicalism) - Since the majority of higher-level pad and index players are getting faster on their feet and are becoming able to hit streams of 200+ BPM, I suppose this is what would make a good pad file. Then again, the steps still need to be accurate...but most pad players, I think, don't like rainbows, so I would quantize then to the nearest 16th or 24th note (depends on the song). A common OP technique is, when there are a stream of 16th notes being heard, to step the 16ths and just ignore all else. Whazashmup, for example, has a 48-second long stream of 16th notes at 240 BPM. Despite this ridiculously long stream and the equally-fast-but-shorter ones surrounding it, it's still a good index/pad file.

                              SP (Subjective Physicalism) - Not much I can do for this one. It's basically the same thing as Objective Physicalism except that there are allowed to be a few notes that do not quite go to the song (Eggman's Quasar, for example...I guess that could be considered a pad file nowadays). But I think I can still provide an example.

                              "888" from DDR Universe 3 (Excuse the uploader. Video's tilted sideways, but you get the idea) is a rare example of a Konami-made SP chart. It's a 95 second boss piece from DJ TECHNORCH, making what I presume to be his DDR debut. Look at the Oni chart for this file: It goes to the Breakcore-influenced drum rhythms rather than the acid lead (which, I guess, would be taking the easy way) for the first 16 bars, then to the synth lead for 8 more bars, then back to the drums for the rest of the song. I was damn surprised to find that the entire file was stepped very accurately, save for a couple of seconds here and there, and I think it's unusually good for a Konami file (I seriously thought it was a chart that a fan had sent in, and I still don't know if that's true).

                              CONTINUED IN NEXT POST
                              How Differences in Communication Norms Can Cause Interpaiensronsal Conflict - by dAnceguy117
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