So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

im in the same boat as gundam dude.

man im getting all riled up i feel a long post coming on

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

Good post., but who is QED?

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

He's a stepartist who came to FFR claiming to be "one of the best" and put a load of his files here on the simfileDB. They were all given really bad reviews, he told FFR he's the best and no one can change that, and then questioned everyone else's sense of stepping. Basically he was a guy with a huge ego with Stepmania who couldn't take a bad critique on one of his files.

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

you should look at QED's files on youtube and come to your own decisions. don't let other people do your thinking

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

I'll give you one because I want people to realize this,

The reason stepmania is dying

first of lets look at these people that are saying stepmania is dying, people from OD, FFR, KBO and Xoon, want to know why, because the amount of people quiting and leaving is bigger than the amount of people joining, I'm not talking about only the people that play files but also the people that make files, want to know why, well if you look at it its quite simple.
for example lets take a look at the these comunites really well and take a look at which point people started to leave and when people started to say stepmania was dying.
if you look at it, it started all after the so called "expressive files" started to be created, like look at this example I made of the OD files


Anime files are an great example of what happens when you try to make them technical, what happens is, anime files are simple and have usally the same pattern over and over and over, with only the lyrics having some differences.
when you try to make that in to an technical file you get the same problem as what happened to OD, your files get boring and not fun, what happened on OD was when they released odmix that people were going around saying "new ODmix files suck, ODanime is better" http://smallnsoft.com/od/forums/inde...ic,1556.0.html , I understood the reason why, but what I saw happening at OD was instead of trying to recreate ODanime they took ODMIX, added these new bunch of rules and easier diff's, some of you might call it a good step but in the end it wasn't that good, ofcourse people are happy that ODanime came back but the problem is, its still technical over fun factor.

Like lets get to the ground of this, why is stepmania dying in the first place, or I should actually say, why are these stepmania communities dying, its because of the same problem you have on KBO, Xoon (even tough its gone now), FFR, and OD, it all starts here http://www.keybeatonline.com/forums/...ead.php?t=2435 yes the Stepmania/KBO Terminology, the new stepmania files made by these community's all follow these rules, well now thing about this, you are an new player and do you think you would care about PR, how to make an stream and loads more, like do you remember why you started sm, I do, it was because I saw a rhythm game were I could make my own music and have "fun", when it comes down to new people fun is the most important aspect in an file, they want enjoyment, not expressive layering, like look at the last few packs that got released on KBO, FFR, and Xoon, which one of them is actually beginner friendly, maybe there are some here and there, but they are still technical, when I want to play an file as an beginner I would like to enjoy the music while hitting notes that fit, I dont care if its 100%, the reason people started to play sm is fun, not to recreate playing an guitar or piano on an keyboard, so you have people creating files in their own way for their own enjoyment, like it fits to their logic, and what do you get, the same problem as what happend to QED, their files get plain rejected, so people see this, and see other people posting files on forums, and what happens people get rejected, people get upset, and go around saying "troll community's" the best way to call it is "closed community's".

what happens in the end is people come together make and way of stepping files what they called "the right way" people join these community's, get rejected and leave, because files are so technical, and an problem with technical files are ofcourse the way to step them, so congratulation's stepmania changed from an ddr simulator to and DnB/Dubstep simulator, ever pack these day from KBO or FFR has atleast 1 Dubstep file, you cant deny it.

There are atm no new files for people to actually attract them in to stepmania files from OD, KBO or FFR, created by you guys, so what chances do they have, what do they do, well their choice is obvious, if you dont get it at this point let me show you.

and thats why he has an gigantic fan based people that just started sm and you guys dont.

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

why do people keep using ODmix files as examples. ive yet to play or download any OD pack so im not getting any reference

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

reading more and more of this thread just says one thing: Play The Files You Enjoy Playing. there are packs/sm artists out there who make files that are not "Color Theory/Complicated/Expressive type" even if you can't step a song that you want that may be simple easy old school kb style someone might step it for you.

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

well in short the original OD files were like almost no technical, even worse than QED files, like random notes every were, but they were still more famous then an pack brought out by OD some time ago, OD thought it was because of the difficulty the steps were, but the reason is that its just to technical, and you know what anime songs are like right, there are only an few you can actually step technical/expressive, so making an expressive anime pack like that for new players is bound to fail, they tried to make an new mix called OD6, and its like ODmix but with some changes like its.. just check it out for your self, you'll understand.

edit: also if you look at osu, its just some round things, ofcourse you can make an expressive way how to place it which is almost unlimited so it doesnt have the same problem as stepmania only limited to 4 keys, so switching to 6 keys is an good idea but not for new players that just started 4 keys, you cant force them to 6 keys

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

^This. It's one thing to say you have good files, it's another to say everyone else has bad ones. I repeat myself, he had a beta tester for his files call out the veteran simfile artists. He also has a German guy preparing his files because he isn't good enough to do them himself. Who needs two assistants to make their own files? He doesn't represent his fans when he says he makes fun files, he's representing the entire SM community, as if EVERYONE enjoys his files.

Nice, let make it 1601. I just got this computer, I forgot to download it.

for the tl;dr people: OD 2-4 were more fun because most of the charts were easier and were made around 2008, where SM and SMO peaked in popularity beyond control of OD.

It really has nothing to do with OD's members, other than the bar wasn't raised in terms of difficulty and most of the files were enjoyable to play. OD 3rd Anime Mix is my favorite to this day, it is legitimately the first pack I've ever downloaded to play on SMO back in August of 2009.

Also Jousway, you just said OD's files were worse than QED's. Who made you an expert on stepping? You're no worse than the people who judge on a technical aspect. We're arguing that neither judging is right, not that QED's view is right. You're really not arguing for the topic at hand, more for one of QED's fanboys. I'm sure you would've been up on that panel preparing files for him if he asked you to. Guy flies all the way from Germany just to come to an SM workshop in Boston. Really sad, gotta give him props, he can manipulate a situation very well. Needs to learn how to control his emotions though, he couldn't keep his composure when I was around disproving his attacks on the community.

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

I asked myself, what kind of file would appeal the largest crowd? It's known that no one file will be liked by all, but what files can get the most appeal to the general crowd?

I started thinking of files we all know. Of course people will say they're overplayed, but that's the point. Because every community and player of all skill, style, and preference seems to like them.

Ageha is definitely overplayed. The thing is it's because it was in a lot of packs. It's actually hard for new players, and the pad community wouldn't like it.

Quasar is definitely overplayed, but it's too easy for spread and most hardcore index players. Not to mention the song itself isn't exciting.

Then I remembered Uber Rave by Joe. A lot of people know and play this file. if you download the original file, there's actually a text document by the simfile artist himself. It says the file was created to please both spread and index, which seems impossible. It would have to be streamy, but he definitely succeeded. I see a lot of spread players enjoying thing file as much as index players do. Even pad players who play ITG seems to enjoy this file. MegamanPtt, primarily a DDR player, played this song as well and enjoyed it.

So now what is it about the file that everyone seems to like or have liked? Well for one, it's a catchy tune. Not too long, but not short. Basic BPM of 175, very streamy and simple patterns. Well synced and single BPM, and barely any room for stupid error. MA file to be honest, which everyone seems to enjoy.

So what would it take to recreate this file on another song? When I say recreate I mean appeal to the largest crowd. To appeal to pad, index, and spread. That is DEFINITELY tough.

I found a song that could be reasonable. I stepped it and recorded it. I noticed that even Uber Rave is hard for some players, and at 12 I don't blame them. This one is 140 BPM as opposed to 175. If I remember correctly, calimist's 1 hr 54 min challenge was 140 BPM stream. I stepped it with the goal of appealing and bridging the gap between new players and old players. Of course old players can pass it easily, so the length will give them a bit more challenge in AAA/AAAA'ng it. As for new players, most of them can handle it and might like it. It's quite paddable as well. I myself don't like the file, and it's more of a draft, but this is to show you. I do have some questions at the end for whoever is interested to answer.

I also completely disregarded technical stuff. Pitch relevancy, layering, matching actual instruments, etc. It's all been thrown out the window. I actually don't like this chart at all, if it was meant for index it would have been stepped differently. TRUST ME. Anyway, here's the video. Found song, created simfile in about an hour or two.



1) Would you play this file? If so, how playable would it be in terms of a week from now?A month? A year? If not, what is it about the file you don't like? Technical opinions, difficulty, length, certain patterns, etc.

2) Do you like the song choice? Is it something you'd actually listen to outside of SM (if you need a link, let me know, there are claps)? How attractice is the song in terms of new players?

3) How well do you think this file covers middle ground in terms of skilled players, from completely new players to veterans? How well does it cover middle ground in terms of style (pad, index, spread, etc.)? How well do you think it appeals to the general SM crowd overall?

Also, if you need the file, no problem. I can send it. It's not uploaded because it's not an official release. It doesn't belong with my index or pad files. I don't even like it, but if you want it I can send it to you.

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

I don't know what this is but I'd never play that file until those purple notes become yellow notes.

edit: maybe for pad endurance practice

Yeah I saw some dude on twitter who never goes on KBO or FFR playing LCP3.

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

I like the methodology you used going into making this file, what I don't like is how boring the song is, plus the amount of time it takes before it gets going. The other files you mentioned all get right into the action.

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

Yea, it's extremely hard to create a file to appeal to all three styles. I thought about it, and this is what I got.

Because pad is the easiest, you'll have to appeal to the higher end. This end is usually covered by hardcore ITG players, who pass 10 footers on DDR easily. This is where most of the crowd lies in nowadays, so the stream is crucial.

Which is where index comes in. Index players like stream, but they do enjoy jumps too when placed correctly. If too many are placed, it doesn't become paddable. Or at least, it loses the fun factor for pad. It will never be a hardcore index file, because then the skill level becomes out of range for new players.

For spread, both of these are easy. So the only option left is to make it a good MA file. Since the difficulty is very easy, length is important to make it harder to AAA or AAAA. Not too long though, because even though ITG players enjoy stamina they get tired too. It has to be hard enough where it's long, somewhat difficult to AAA, fun to play, and covers middle ground for skill level.

This is a song I found on short notice, I'm glad I was able to step it that quickly. But I do agree, the beginning starts off slow. Compared to Quasar though, the song choice is a little more interesting. A lot of new players seem to enjoy the easy beginning such as Quasar. It's a really difficult thing to look at it from such a far distance to include all styles. I hate this file in terms of fun, it's decent but I love harder and more chaotic index files, such as Lawn Wake files.

This is also the attempt at one chart. More charts could be made yes, but the less amount of charts that have to be made to cover the general audience the better. It's also more impressive to have people refer to one chart rather than one simfile with multiple charts.

The length was annoying, and I didn't want to cut so people could hear the whole song. Experimental stuff.

I hate that colored note. But if you listen to that part, it's a little more delayed than the second time. The offset becomes different, so I just took out the beats and placed them using the whole 96th and 192th steps.. I really didn't want to go into making the color right, but yea I understand. It pisses me off too lol.

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

if you want to appeal to pad, index and spread players why not make three charts xd

also given it is a generic techno song I suspect that the coloured notes are not necessary at all

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

I typically only browse around at the discussions here, but this one seemed really interesting, so I thought I would chime in. I originally started out in Dance with Intensity way back in 2003, which (as far back as I can remember) didn't even have an editor; my friends and I spent an immemorable amount of time in Notepad putting arrows to video game music. The stepfiles were, by just about anyone's standards, terrible and trashy, but we had loads of fun. It absolutely was the draw of being able to "play" our favorite songs that we loved so much about it. I was never really part of any online community; in fact, I've only really been part of one in the past, and that was many years ago as well (and VGM related). Back in 2003, there really wasn't much of a standard about a "right" way to do a file. Sure, we all knew when a file was offbeat, but even that didn't bother a lot of us. I imagine that some people still aren't bothered by it now, though I gather by how the times have changed that the number is far fewer.

I agree with a lot of things said in this thread. But, that's me.

Over time, I began to see more "technical" files come about - and this may have been due to the advent of Stepmania - and I began to appreciate the relation of certain patterns to phrases of music and began incorporating them in my own stepfiles. But as files became more "technical", they became, to me, less enjoyable. But that's really where all of this idealism about "to each his own" in terms of "fun factor" falls apart; the fact that "to each his own" inherently brings us to where we are now, not away from it. You see, many people now have chosen to be "technical" over including "fun factor", and just as they really have no right to call our methods wrong, we really have no right to call theirs the same. For example:

They have to power to do this because it is what they really think. As someone said in this thread, consider Stepmania a form of art (and it really is, in a way); a person crafts a stepfile in a way she thinks is appropriate, whatever that entails. She may not care if it's "technical", or she may not care if it's "fun", but what matters to her is the end result she is striving for. Now, in the end, one group of people will think one thing about it, and another group of people will think something entirely different. There really isn't a file that exists that everyone thinks is fun. I guarantee you. And that's just the nature of people. We all have different opinions. And, just like any form of art, someone may look at your painting and say "Man, that's terrible" and someone may say "That's absolutely amazing" and both are within their rightful opinions.

I think that, in a fashion similar to the way we try to call stepfiles "right" or "wrong", we try to reach some higher level of appreciation and cultural awareness by saying that all art is "good" and that it's only a person's taste and opinion about art that make them *think* it is "bad". This is a silly argument because its root is in establishing some sort of fact about an outlet based purely on taste and opinion. If you are behind this argument, then you have to be able to honestly argue that every single song in the world is good, and every single movie, and every single game, and every single other creative outlet; at that point, we've essentially established that "bad" does not exist. Sure, "good" and "bad" are based on taste and opinion, but taste and opinion are valid arguments because they are what a person truly feels about something, and that is what matters in a creative world. So, you can't beat comments like

because they are the very territory of the creative world. And really, it's the nature of people, to be critical, blunt, and say things that offend you (even if it wasn't their goal to offend you). I don't mean to sound pessimistic - that's not what this is about - it's just that people are like that. There's no way to change it. When you get a group of people together that want to make a pack of stepfiles, they have to like the stepfiles that they're putting in. It's only fair; it's their pack. They have to be satisfied with its contents in some way. A different set of people will accept a different type of files because they will have different judges. Apparently FFR has some really strict guidelines about how "technical" a file is. It's their game. They have to like what goes into it. It's impossible to try and achieve a sort of Utopian "everything goes and step anything you want" because let's face it, none of us want every single file ever made to be released in the places we go to for some form of "quality control", which I think someone mentioned in this thread. Very few people here can argue that they want that. Otherwise, why not just go to the Stepmania file database?

Anyway, the reason I've put a lot of things in quotes, like technical, fun factor, good and bad is because those are all subjective terms as well - yes, even "technical". With only 4 places to put arrows, true pitch relevancy and even the proper way to layer percussion (does anyone think about THAT?) goes out the window, and you make do with what you have. To some people, that interpretation is different. But since we've already established that something is left up to interpretation, that means that there isn't really a "correct" way because interpretation is subjective.

I apologize if I'm repeating some things that have already been said, because I only read some of the posts in this thread, but I thought I would just give my point of view. In a way, I don't know where the original post was going, though I do really like the reminiscent quality of it and, again, I agree with many of the things said; stepfile artists have gone away from stepping levels that "play well" and have instead moved to making things "technically sound". I felt like there was some need in the post to fix things regarding how the community views stepfiles, but really, the community's take on files is like any democracy's take on any issue: some people will agree, some people won't. It's true, really; you can't make everyone happy. The best you can do is try to find a group of people that agree with the way you think and enjoy your similar tastes and opinions with them.