God.

[devonin]

Re: God.

Doesn't god get a say in all of this if he/she truely exists?

Whether God does not exist or God does exist and simply deigns not to reveal itself, the outcome for humanity is largely the same.

As I see it, there are only a few possibilities here:

1/ God does not exist, everything we think we know about God is a construction
2/ God does exist, everything we think we know about God is completely correct, which is why we have never been corrected.
3/ God does exist, and simply doesn't care one whit what we do or do not think we know about it.

I know which of those three -I- find the most appealing and compelling.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Re: God.

Yeah, you're right about that. I shouldn't have posted that connection about god hypothetically being a tyrant and the government. Even today, so many religions are practiced by politicians that I feel are so oppressive. I still want to make it clear that god shouldn't be viewed as a tyrant who wants us to serve him 24/7. Even if god is a tyrant, I don't value such a time consuming activity that takes away from people and won't stand for it on my own watch.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Re: God.

So you say that devonin, but what exactly is the one that you find "most appealing and compelling" and why?

[devonin]

Re: God.

Well, if nothing else, I prefer to hope that '2' is not the case. If God exists, and approves of everything being done in God's name, then God is evil and we should be actively opposing it at every turn.

Number '3' The necessary belief of religious people that God does not interfere in the goings on of reality (ie. they can justify following God despite the evil in the world, by blaming the evil on themselves and not God) but -STILL CARES about humanity- runs into a few blocks, because these people often also believe in the power of Prayer to influence God to intervene, and that Miracles are performed that actually just change the very course of events. In such cases, God is -clearly- interfering in the world, and thus -does- interfere in the world and we go right back to point 2: If God -does- interfere in the world, then God is allowing all of the evils to continue.

Further, in any state in which God interferes with the world, we have no free will as a result, and I'm not especially keen on concluding determinism even though I can argue for it pretty strongly if I want to.

About the only two conclusions I can possibly draw about God that both match the course of human existance -and- make any kind of logical sense to me (Other than "God is real, and a total asshole") are:

1/ god simply does not exist in any meaningful sense. (Ie. Even -if- some "force" created the universe, it is not a sentient thinking force, and thus irellevant to human understanding of the world)
2/ God exists in a meaningful sense, but has absolutely no vested interest whatsoever in humanity, Earth, or even this entire universe. (Ie. Even -if- God created this universe, it wasn't so we would exist, and could have been just for the hell of it, and either way may not even be -aware- of our existance and definately does not care for the course of humanity)

The process of 1/ is similar to (but not the same as) agnosticism, while 2/ is pretty much textbook Deism, and are of all the beliefs I've studied, among the more compelling and logical given what evidence we have and can understand.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Re: God.

To be honest, I would really hope that a god exists because if one does, so very many questions can be answered. If a god doesn't exist then humanity might never really know anything about a god. The very thought that there will never be proof sickens me because I like a hypothesis to lead to a conclusion and help humanity (as described by that lovely table). Oh and I meant to go along with the possibility that this god does not favor the oppressive ideas of humans.

[Reach]

Re: God.

One god has to exist because there is Space, Time, and Matter? .

Why would it require a God?

God would also need a creator if all things need to be created. If God does not need a creator then not all things need creators, and I could easily appoint any number of things that are not gods to be eternal and the reason for our existance.

This isn't really a black and white issue.

. It took our world so long to find many things like atoms and maybe finding a god is somewhere in our scope as well.

Apparently not since we already have thousands of religions and Gods >_>

As I see it, there are only a few possibilities here:

1/ God does not exist, everything we think we know about God is a construction
2/ God does exist, everything we think we know about God is completely correct, which is why we have never been corrected.
3/ God does exist, and simply doesn't care one whit what we do or do not think we know about it.

4/ There are many Gods

There is also an inherent problem with the word 'God'. You use the word God as if being singular and having one universal definition. You need to define God though, because it can be used in so many ways even an atheist like me could twist the word enough to say there is a God.

[ledwix]

Re: God.

So God has to be a thing? Maybe "things" refers to tangible entities we can perceive in this universe.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Re: God.

The funny part about my beliefs in all possibilities (one god, many, none, or others unknown) is that I don't have any basic definition of a god. If we used god as some being that made people then couldn't we all just refer to our parents as gods? The definition of a god has basically no meaning to us which is why I don't like religion (except my own ideas). Some say that god is an emotion or some part of physical or mental beings while others think of it as an authoritarian king. I would only hope that a god is a being that can govern human beings out of being intolerant.

[Reach]

Re: God.

So God has to be a thing? Maybe "things" refers to tangible entities we can perceive in this universe.

Sure, God is a thing. Everything that exists is a thing as far as i'm using the word (hence the word everything, lol ;D). If it exists it's a thing, and if something can exist without a creator I don't see how that rule is somehow bound to only Gods.

And yes MOTF, many people use the word God differently, which is why often people argue even though their sides are very similar. I suppose what most of us here are talking about when we say 'God' is an omniscient creator of all things.

[Sir_Thomas]

Re: God.

Time has been around since the birth of our universe and is the most important factor of our lives and existence. God created the universe and since the universe requires time as a factor it clearly means that God created Time when he created our universe.

This is probably the best example of stupidity I have seen.
When trying to prove your point, you cant use the point you are trying to prove as a fact in the arguement.

He is trying to prove God exists, yet he used God as a variable in his argument.
He basically said "Listen, God exists because Time has been around since the universe was created, since God created our universe, God exists."

Its as stupid as saying...
"People were created by God, so if we exist, that means God must exist."

[ledwix]

Re: God.

Basically, thread-starter, you're going to have to do a better job of convincing people who don't share youre ideology. Your train of thought has to parallel theirs for them to even have a touch of respect for you, probably.

[Orch_Dork]

Re: God.

Wow.... why do none of you prefer logic? One god has to exist because there is Space, Time, and Matter? Just because scientists don't have proof yet doesn't make them wrong. It took our world so long to find many things like atoms and maybe finding a god is somewhere in our scope as well. As for now, religion is only a hypothesis and everyone knows it! We have no evidence for any side so we might as well give credit to every possibility and not be ignorant of others. In our world, no one is right or wrong without evidence. And no I don't believe in one god in my own mannor (I used to). I believe in one, many, none, or any other possibilities that may surprise us. I have seen people who pray at one church that values one god and many. It just never made sense to me, but now it does. I thought maybe I should pray to 3 churches where one would be atheist, for one god, and for many, but I can't just address human ideas which is why I value every possibility. The sins in these religions are conflicting which is why I never cared about them that much and plus there is no proof that they Are sins. Furthermore, I don't have to do what is right if I don't like it. I just know that being ignorant will lead to consequence (hopefully by a being such as a god).

First of all, space, time, and matter prove nothing. There was time before earth, and matter to. But there was a whole lot of space. So that really proves nothing.

Second of all, how are you believing in one god, many gods, and no god, at one time. I don't understand.

Last, you wouldn't pray at an athiest church... THEY DONT BELIEVE IN GODS!!!

[devonin]

Re: God.

I dunno, you can be an atheist and then also be something along the lines of a satanist wherein you would be functionally praying to yourself, but that's really beside the point here (And I've probably opened a can of worms for all the people who only think they know what satanism is [hint: it isn't satan worship])

[Orch_Dork]

Re: God.

I dunno, you can be an atheist and then also be something along the lines of a satanist wherein you would be functionally praying to yourself, but that's really beside the point here (And I've probably opened a can of worms for all the people who only think they know what satanism is [hint: it isn't satan worship])

According to my aj.com guestion, it does in Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism

[devonin]

Re: God.

According to my aj.com guestion, it does in Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism

read on in the article:

The most prominent and widely known Satanist in recent years (as of 2007) is, and was Anton Szandor LaVey, who founded the Church of Satan in 1966. LaVey wrote The Satanic Bible (1969) and other works which remain highly influential, though controversial, among avowed Satanists. LaVey rejected the Black Mass, cruelty to animals, or a literal deistic belief in, or worship of Satan, instead considering Satan as the human instinct within ourselves