REAL 210 :: FFR Batch Submission
bmah - REAL 210 - paraoka [6.25 / 10]
Jan/Feb 2022
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Rejected
An old song that I originally submitted in early 2008 but failed to get in. Times have changed: a song cut for a song that is melodically and rhythmically repetitive, as well as a chart more reflective of modern-day stepping.
Part of a paraoka series where the other songs in this series include WOW WOW 220 and WAIWAI230.

Simfile Folder Name

REAL 210 (bmah)

Note Count

1741

Chart Length

2:31

Average NPS

11.7213

Estimated Difficulty

81.35

First Note

0:03

Ending Note Delay

0:01

Hand Bias

x 35

Framers

0 - 0 1 - 0 2 - 0 3 - 6 4 - 315

Jumps

x 387

Hands

x 109

Quads

x 0

Color Jumps

x 13

Color Hands

x 11

Color Quads

x 0

Most notes in:

1/3 of a Second
11 - 33.00 nps 0.5 Seconds
15 - 30.00 nps 1 Second
26 - 26.00 nps 2 Seconds
43 - 21.50 nps 5 Seconds
92 - 18.40 nps 10 Seconds
176 - 17.60 nps 30 Seconds
450 - 15.00 nps 1 Minute
750 - 12.50 nps

Color Count

x 789 (45.32%)
x 661 (37.97%)
x 2 (0.11%)
x 219 (12.58%)
x 1 (0.06%)
x 16 (0.92%)
x 0 (0%)
x 4 (0.23%)
x 49 (2.81%)

Largest Note Gaps

0.63s0.43s0.43s0.43s0.43s0.43s0.43s0.43s
35
28
21
14
7

REAL 210 (bmah) [6/10]
> Permission check good.
> Sync looks good (No changes necessary).
> No issues found within simfile properties.
> Folder contains ".dwi" file. Recommend removing.

- 0:03.123 not a real big fan of this [23]4[23] patterning here, and in the rest of the section. both [23]s are for different sounds, so it would be better if they used different jumps. reusing jumps in quick succession like this implies that they are the same sound. Given how many sounds are being followed in this section small things like this can make it more or less confusing for the player to follow. while the surrounding [14]s both have that synthy snare, the sound happens on every other 4th. Its not going to catch the player off guard that it happens on the next 4th. I feel that it would be better to focus on the piano here, and have jump placement follow that, with the rest of the chart working around it.

- 0:04.226 If i'm understanding the chart right the layering is piano=jump kick=jump snare=jump snare+piano=hand kick+piano=hand This note however remains a jump despite having a piano and kick, yet 0:04.694 receives a hand for the same sound. Interestingly at 0:11.122 we do get a hand for this very kick.

- 0:11.265 The synth here should really have its 16ths charted. You clearly want to follow the synth so follow it. Sacrificing density to fit in the 16ths here is a good tradeoff, and much better than not having 16ths here like in the current chart.

** 0:11.551 This jack anchor is unacceptable. There is no musical justification for it and it is just randomly thrown in. There is this random difficulty spike despite the section being identical to what came previously. Its just forced in for reasons i couldn't possibly know.

- 0:11.979 this repeated jump seems even more unnecessary and forced in the context of the jack.

- 0:20.692 this section increases the density and where i think the complexity of what is being followed just becomes too much. while everything here is technically correct (mostly) there is just so much going on and so many different instruments playing different rhythms that it feels like the chart kind of loses the song and is trying to chart everything. here's one example of how confusing this section can be: The changes in the song here are very minimal. Its just building on what was established in the previous section, so it would make sense if the chart did the same. However despite more notes existing in this section something has been taken away from the charts in the for of kicks no longer getting jumps. A fairly big change in chart structure with a very small change in music structure. While technically accurate, it feels to me like a dense mess.

- 0:21.264 there should be a note here. this isn't a syncopated rhythm, but constant 16ths.

- 0:38.410 i get why this note is a 192nd, but considering this is a 1 off sound and the color theory that happens right after it in the next section, i think it would be a good idea to just leave this note as a 4th.

- 0:48.118 Another example of the song building up, with a more major change in the chart structure. The lack of notes for the cymbal ticks is sudden and results in the chart being more empty despite building up. There are also some missing synths like the ones on 1 at 0:50.403 I can se a reason to reduce the layering to focus on piano, but i do think there should at least be some notes charted.

- 0:57.259 this section lacks energy in the chart. I feel that the lack of constant 8ths really hurts the section. looking at what notes are actually here it feels a bit needlessly complicated and like it doesn't focus on the right things. Right now the player is asked to keep track of the kick, snare, piano, and melody and layer them all on top of each other to figure out whats going on in the chart. in my opinion the focus should be on the melody, and while the notes are there, it doesn't come across well, and can get lost in the sea of other notes.

- 1:06.401 This is another random spike in difficulty for seemingly no reason with zero changes in the song. Its suddenly hard for the sake of being hard and it does not work. And we also have random unjustified jacks suddenly, again for no reason.

- 1:15.828 this is a much better more focused section that better represents the song. we get jumps for the melody, and notes for percussion. very simple and focuses on the right stuff without requiring the player to analyze every note to understand whats going on. though, again i think it would be better to have a not on every cymbal tick. It feels the percussion is a bit fragmented in the chart since you're only charting specific parts of it (you dont need to layer each distinct sound just having some notes would be good)

- 1:20.828 And here we go back down in quality again. Instead of focusing on the response to the melody that was just followed, its entirely ignored and we go back to having layered percussion. Not even notes like 1:22.970 are placed despite it being quite an important melody.

- 1:24.470 missing 16th for the main synth.

- 1:24.970 yet another unjustified sudden spike in difficulty.

- 1:33.826 given how much is going on in the song here, the chart is REALLY empty. It doesn't need to be super difficult but there really should be more notes. 1:34.612 is literally a cymbal note, but others aren't charted, despite being constant.

- 1:50.110 Given the constant piano jack, i feel [124] or [134] hands would work better to preserve that [14] jack.

- 1:51.467 missing jump for the jumptrill.

- 1:52.681 This is another really nicely charted section, even better than the last good section. I wish more of the chart was stepped with this kind of thinking.

- 1:52.752 feels like there should be another 16th here. sounds like an accented cymbal.

- 2:00.686 you really put the trill for the sound that comes in on the left channel on the right hand, and the one on the right channel on the left hand.

- 2:13.821 now this is how the piano section should've been charted earlier in the song. Its much cleaner and just works better.

- 2:19.868 This note should be on the 16th, like it is earlier in the chart.

- 2:27.248 This sound seems more complicated than the trill would imply. Its not wrong, but with the fading and different accented notes it feels like there is a better way to pattern this than a trill.

Random difficulty jumps with no musical justification seems to be a theme with this chart. These sections really show how forced the difficulty is and often fail to focus on the right parts of the song. There are sections where the chart does get it right but it feels like the minority of sections.

REAL 210 (bmah) [6.5/10]
>Perms, metadata, sync good

11.551-20.692 - Melody is literally the same as the stuff before it, yet there’s longjacks all of a sudden.
20.978-38.404 - Currently inconsistent on stepping the red 4th singles.
38.976-56.974 - What are the majority of these white notes even going to?
1:36.969 - Should be [23] if you want to stay consistent on this tiny jack motif. Should probably recheck 1:36,969-1:49.539 to keep the tiny jack motif consistent.
1:40.302/1:40.492 - Ghost 12ths.
2:10.250-2:10.679 - Not PR-related but you could make this easier by switching the 32nd roll direction.
2:19.868 - Should be at 2:19.892.
2:20.106-2:24.677 - Not an obvious spike, but it kinda is since it’s the only time when this ending melody is so biased on one hand. Change optional.

>>Needs a lot of polish!

storn42:
3.123 not a real big fan of this [23]4[23] patterning here, and in the rest of the section. both [23]s are for different sounds, so it would be better if they used different jumps. reusing jumps in quick succession like this implies that they are the same sound. Given how many sounds are being followed in this section small things like this can make it more or less confusing for the player to follow. while the surrounding [14]s both have that synthy snare, the sound happens on every other 4th. Its not going to catch the player off guard that it happens on the next 4th. I feel that it would be better to focus on the piano here, and have jump placement follow that, with the rest of the chart working around it.
- I feel your rationale here is convoluted. This section just flows well and that's all there really is to it. I have the layering going with the percussions and melodies but there really isn't any one pattern or arrow assigned to a specific element - that would be far too rigid. I doubt the player is going to be confused whatsoever because all that'll really be on their mind in a 210 BPM song that's blurring by are 8th patterns that flow well.

4.226 If i'm understanding the chart right the layering is piano=jump kick=jump snare=jump snare+piano=hand kick+piano=hand This note however remains a jump despite having a piano and kick, yet 4.694 receives a hand for the same sound. Interestingly at 11.122 we do get a hand for this very kick.
- The three main elements in this section are: 1) continuous 8th hi-hats (keeps a running pattern), 2) kick that occurs on every other 4th, and 3) piano chords. A 4th element that occurs but only on occasion is the synth melody, which you do note at 11.122. If the synth melody was busier, then the layering would be too dense, but since it occurs on occasionally, you can account for it.

11.265 The synth here should really have its 16ths charted. You clearly want to follow the synth so follow it. Sacrificing density to fit in the 16ths here is a good tradeoff, and much better than not having 16ths here like in the current chart.
- I don't hear any 16ths that are prominent (maybe on slowdown speed, but definitely not on 1x music speed...).

** 11.551 This jack anchor is unacceptable. There is no musical justification for it and it is just randomly thrown in. There is this random difficulty spike despite the section being identical to what came previously. Its just forced in for reasons i couldn't possibly know.
- The reason's easy: because this song as a whole is really really repetitive. Not everything needs a musical justification for a change-up, especially when the song leaves little room for musical variety. I've done the pattern change-up without musical change many times (e.g. play my chart for the song "Ready to go". Kommisar judged that file. He did notice what I did but ultimately understood what I was going for). However, I WILL concede that in this case, the change in patterning is VERY different from the previous, and that really threw you in for a loop. There's a bit of past history here - I previously got this song rejected way back around 2009 or so, and I revisited that file. It was incredibly, incredibly boring and repetitive. I'll consider changing this section to a different pattern for gameplay reasons, but the main challenge will be to make a flowing pattern that isn't the same as previous, and considering the instrumentation present, that may not be so easy. A last note: the patterning of all the 8th hi-hats being on repetitive jacks is actually a small nod to the beatmania IIDX song called Real, which this song is based off of. The note patterning of older IIDX songs were often more rigid.

20.692 this section increases the density and where i think the complexity of what is being followed just becomes too much. while everything here is technically correct (mostly) there is just so much going on and so many different instruments playing different rhythms that it feels like the chart kind of loses the song and is trying to chart everything. here's one example of how confusing this section can be: The changes in the song here are very minimal. Its just building on what was established in the previous section, so it would make sense if the chart did the same. However despite more notes existing in this section something has been taken away from the charts in the for of kicks no longer getting jumps. A fairly big change in chart structure with a very small change in music structure. While technically accurate, it feels to me like a dense mess.
- I'd prefer to keep this section because although it's denser, it isn't as jarring as the previous 8th jack section. You've got to understand how repetitive this song is and I really want to mix it up, not just in patterns alone but also in incorporating different amounts of elements, which changes the density.

21.264 there should be a note here. this isn't a syncopated rhythm, but constant 16ths.
- The main kicks are definitely syncopated 16ths. The 8th note in between them gets acknowledged in the next rhythmic exercise (once again, to change things up).

48.118 Another example of the song building up, with a more major change in the chart structure. The lack of notes for the cymbal ticks is sudden and results in the chart being more empty despite building up. There are also some missing synths like the ones on 1 at 50.403 I can se a reason to reduce the layering to focus on piano, but i do think there should at least be some notes charted.
- Regarding 50.403s: I don't hear these 16ths you're talking about. Can you clarify? As for your other point, I felt it would get too crowded to continue with those 8th rhythmic percussions, but I modified it and made it work somehow.

57.259 this section lacks energy in the chart. I feel that the lack of constant 8ths really hurts the section. looking at what notes are actually here it feels a bit needlessly complicated and like it doesn't focus on the right things. Right now the player is asked to keep track of the kick, snare, piano, and melody and layer them all on top of each other to figure out whats going on in the chart. in my opinion the focus should be on the melody, and while the notes are there, it doesn't come across well, and can get lost in the sea of other notes.
- My problem is that homogenizing this section with continuous 8ths will lead to redundancy in patterns that would connect with the following busier section. At the very least though, I don't feel this section is complicated at all. No one is asking the player to keep track of any instruments. Someone interpreting the chart, sure, but this isn't going to be rocket science for the players.

66.401 This is another random spike in difficulty for seemingly no reason with zero changes in the song. Its suddenly hard for the sake of being hard and it does not work. And we also have random unjustified jacks suddenly, again for no reason.
- No! It's pattern variation, and this one I intend to keep. You have to realize that the suggestions you've been asking me to make so far would homogenize the chart to the point where it's going to be one big fat 8th streams. I could get down to adjusting a pattern that's far too sharp in approach, such as the earlier 8th longjacks, but to ask me to adjust for consistent density is to kill the chart's interests. I really would not prefer an inoffensive, 90% 8th jump chart that would be another passing memory.

80.828 And here we go back down in quality again. Instead of focusing on the response to the melody that was just followed, its entirely ignored and we go back to having layered percussion. Not even notes like 82.970 are placed despite it being quite an important melody.
- Cut it out with the "go back down in quality again" thing because you're just interpreting this with the leaning towards consistent patterns rather than an attempt to make a rhythmically boring chart interesting (differences in interpretation can be disagreed upon, but it's not necessarily a degradation in quality). And of course the 16ths like 82.970s are placed - see 85.18s, etc. Nothing missing there.

84.470 missing 16th for the main synth.
- Must be related to something you pointed out earlier, which again I cannot hear any 16ths here.

84.970 yet another unjustified sudden spike in difficulty.
- See previous points.

93.826 given how much is going on in the song here, the chart is REALLY empty. It doesn't need to be super difficult but there really should be more notes. 94.612 is literally a cymbal note, but others aren't charted, despite being constant.
- Not sure what you mean by 94.612s. As for your other point: I suppose this could be done, but once again, this may result in a long, continuous string of 8ths. Breaking it up would actually differentiate the patterns in themselves. Sounds in between can be ignored due to their lack of significance.

111.467 missing jump for the jumptrill.
- Fixed.

112.681 This is another really nicely charted section, even better than the last good section. I wish more of the chart was stepped with this kind of thinking.
- Well good thing I cut the second half of this part of the song because it would've been musically more of the same but I probably would have approached it with the sort of variation that you dislike.

112.752 feels like there should be another 16th here. sounds like an accented cymbal.
- I don't hear any 16ths. At a slower music speed, I do hear some nuanced swing sounds, but this is likely just an artefact of what is most likely very straightforward drum'n bass fills.

139.868 This note should be on the 16th, like it is earlier in the chart.
- Fixed.

Random difficulty jumps with no musical justification seems to be a theme with this chart. These sections really show how forced the difficulty is and often fail to focus on the right parts of the song. There are sections where the chart does get it right but it feels like the minority of sections.
- This chart should be approached with the intent of being played with themes and variations, showcasing different patterns in a very rhythmically and sometimes musically repetitive chart. I can adjust awkward or rigid patterns but I am not down to homogenize my chart for the sake of density consistency. If people want to step this chart as a boring 8th note run, then that's fine, but that is definitely not going to be my stepping philosophy. For something that's more consistent for a repetitive song, try my chart BEER? FOR BATHING!! It's a pretty forgettable chart in my opinion, and I'm not here to repeat that.

----------

ositzxz369:
11.551-20.692 - Melody is literally the same as the stuff before it, yet there’s longjacks all of a sudden.
- It's called pattern variety, and it's a common strategy to mix up redundant sections of a song. This song has a tendency to have a lot of same-y elements, and a lot of it is due to its rhythm being repetitive. Though I will admit, the change in pattern in this case is VERY different. The longjacks herald closer to the rhythmic variety of old IIDX charts. Anyways, having the same patterns as previous is just really boring, but I can concede changing it if you prefer boringness for consistency.

20.978-38.404 - Currently inconsistent on stepping the red 4th singles.
- Not sure what you're interpreting here; it's pretty consistent. Are you hoping those singles are jumps, or is it something else? If the former, then no, not all 4ths are jumps or hands.

38.976-56.974 - What are the majority of these white notes even going to?
- The soundbyte "these monsters monsters!"

96.969 - Should be [23] if you want to stay consistent on this tiny jack motif. Should probably recheck 1:36,969-109.539 to keep the tiny jack motif consistent.
- Are you talking about the repeated 8ths as a byproduct of the 16ths? I wasn't actually trying to maintain that...maybe it's incidental. It's just 16ths and occasional jumps without much rigidity on what patterns I'm doing.

100.302/100.492 - Ghost 12ths.
- Not at all - it's the main melody!

130.250-130.679 - Not PR-related but you could make this easier by switching the 32nd roll direction.
- Good point - fixed.

139.868 - Should be at 139.892.
- Fixed.

FINAL COMMENTS:
- I am willing to change the longjack section at the beginning of the chart, due to its extreme nature in the approach to tackling those patterns. However, I feel that suggestions to make my chart basically a rhymically consistent file of everlasting 8ths is a failure to understand my approach to the file and clearly an attempt to push the bias towards a certain mantra of stepping that I don't always agree with. Furthermore, such a change would actually destroy the entire character of the chart.

Therefore: APPEAL

Rejection upheld. Pattern variation is indeed a good thing, but the suggestion to even difficulty spikes and make layering more consistent is by no means a compulsion to make the chart a homogeneous string of nothing but 8ths. As is, there is a substantial mismatch between the intensity of the chart and the intensity of the song in several sections (which storn does a good job at pointing out) and this is a valid reason for rejection. In general, if the chart gets much harder with no perceptible change in the song's intensity, as it does multiple times here, something is amiss.

I'd also like to direct your attention to the notes in which storn specifically points out ways to make the chart less homogeneous, like 11.265, 84.470, and 147.248 (all of which I agree with). From a quick listen on 1.0, there are also opportunities for 16ths at 61.188, 65.830, and so forth. This chart does not have to be "a rhythmically consistent file of everlasting 8ths" and this is not what storn is telling you to do.