My idea will have some questions, ask them here

[StoicRoivaS]

First off, thanks to the 3 or so of you who've actually taken some time to think about my idea and offer (some) criticism and questions.

I'm interested in hosting the next TWG and here is my idea, as I have it worded thus far. Because of the complexity of the idea, the purpose of this thread is to get some questions out in the open that I'm sure I missed in my description of the game idea. I'm looking for things like "how about this situation" or "how does this aspect of the game work" or "when does this happen", things of that nature. I borrowed the idea from the sole variant of the idea I've seen played. It needed some tweeking, needed to be put in FFR's TWG format, needed player numbers altered, needed roles altered, and needed balanced, and that is what I did. Without further ado, I present:

Time Travel TWG

This game idea will incorporate various traditional, and some non-traditional, aspects of FFR's TWG and "Time Travel" into one confusing yet enjoyable forum game experience.


Game Design Principle:

The most basic and important principle of the game is: the timeline. The timeline always progresses forward, no matter what choices are made. You, as a town, will move from night 1 to day 1 to night 2 and so on, in that order, without repeating or going backwards or missing any days, guaranteed. Instead, you may find that history rewrites itself each and every night and day. The most current history will be maintained and updated in the opening post of the game, which will serve as the current and updated situation. When time-travelers use their time-traveling abilities, they will travel temporarily from the current night to the night of their choice (in the past, present or future), perform their role, and then return to the same instant of the current night they just left. In traveling to the past, the time-traveler may create an event that will alter all proceeding history as the town knows it. The new history will become the town’s new reality.

In the process of changing history, people may be removed (killed), or added back (brought back to life) to the timeline. When you die, you are probably not permanently dead. Instead, actions may occur in the past that affect whether or not you were killed. If you die, and later an action occurs in a following night that alters the “past” that causes you to “come back to life”, you will be added back into the timeline at the point that you originally left: the point you died. Most importantly, all of your choices that should have been made from the time you were dead until the time you were “brought back to life” WILL BE MADE APPROPRIATELY (See Below).

Mechanics of the Game:

Voting:
Since the timeline will be rewriting itself nearly each and every night, I will be requiring that each person submit multiple votes per day. When you vote, you will vote for 2 or 3 people (undecided at the moment). You must bold and number your votes accordingly. A vote like: #1 Player X, #2 Player Y, #3 Player Z, would mean that you want player X to be lynched today, and if for whatever reason in the future, player X is no longer a valid lynch target, your vote for that day (in the past) will be changed to player Y. If some event alters history in a way that your vote could not have been either player X or player Y, your vote would be taken as player Z for that day (in the past). In the event that none of the 3 are valid targets, your vote will be taken as a no vote with no penalty to you.

This is very important in correctly rewriting history. Please do not skimp on the 3 votes at a time. If you would like, we can make vote #1 public, as always, and votes #2 and #3 private via PM, to avoid “pointing fingers” and what not.

Since past votes may be changed over the course of the game, no insta-lynch option will be available in this game. The voting will end at some predetermined deadline that will be expressed to the players.

Roles:
In order to balance the game as well as reduce the effectiveness and validity of role-claiming, all roles will be private knowledge except to those players receiving the roles. Obviously the wolves will be able to communicate roles between themselves, but all players will be in the dark as to what roles are available at the start of the game. This makes it easier to claim a certain role and harder for people to believe that you actually have said role. This does not mean that you cannot reveal your role. This means that at the start of the game, it is unknown what roles are available.

The name, alignment, function, and protocol of your role will all be included in your PM so there should be no confusion as to how your given role functions. If you have any questions regarding your role, PM me accordingly.

Game Protocol:
Do not talk to any other player while you are dead. The possibilities of time travel make it fairly likely that you will be brought back to life at some point in future timelines. While you are dead you are still participating in the game by making any and all of your “choices” each night and day (See Below).

Each night, all players with special roles will PM their choices to me. That means that even if you are dead, you make your choices for that night as if you weren’t. They do not affect the current time line, but in the event that you are brought back on a prior night, all choices will retroactively happen as if you were alive. The same thing applies for voting on a given day’s lynch. If you are alive, you bold your vote in the 1, 2, 3 (#1 being your top choice) fashion described above in the main game thread, like always. If you are dead you are to PM YOUR VOTE TO ME in the same 1, 2, 3 fashion described above. This way I am able to retroactively apply your votes should you be brought back to life.

When PMing me for your nightly choices, please note that for all time travel roles, and possibly others as well, not only will a target person be needed, but a target night as well. If you are traveling to the past, you need a destination night as well as a person you’re performing your action on. This is also very important. I will do my best to remind you but otherwise your action may be forfeit.

In order to keep everything as logical as possible, there will be no night posting. This will help to keep the information separate from the "choices". In the end it may not have mattered, but for my sake, there needs to be some order.

Paradoxes:
In the event that your choice is not properly able to resolve with all other choices, you may be asked to pick another valid option, or rescind from an action altogether. This should be quite rare if possible at all, but you have a fair warning either way.

Abstract Example (For those confused):
I will divulge one of the game’s (obvious) roles that will be available: The Time Travel Wolf(s). The TT wolf will be able to make their kill on any night from the present night all the way back to night 1. They choose a target player, as always, as well as choosing a target night to perform their kill on. After all choices have been made by all applicable players, I will resolve the events of the night into one coherent, new (current) timeline. In this new timeline, it is very possible for previously living players to be missing (dead) and previously dead players to be present (alive). It is all dependent on how history rewrites itself. This is very important so pay attention: EVERYTHING THAT CAN POSSIBLY BE REWRITTEN WILL BE REWRITTEN. That means, yes, past lynches can change, past special actions can change, past wolfings can change and any other change you can think of. If I have the information needed to rewrite every detail, I will do so as best as logic allows me and convey the results to you accordingly. This is why it is necessary to make multiple votes each day (and possibly multiple targets for your special role, not sure on this point yet).

Concrete Example (For those still confused):
Lets say Player X (human) has made is safely to night 3. Along the way they have a few people suspicious of them so they have been left alive by the wolves, to garner further suspicion. On night 3 something happens that clears their suspicion entirely (seer, psychic info, vigi use, convincing convo, whatever). Now that they are seen as a trusted human, it would be in the wolves’ best interest to wolf them. So do they wolf them night 4? No. What if there is a guardian in the game? Surely the guardian would be guarding them now that they are the alliance head. So what can the wolves do? Time travel back to a previous night and kill Player X (human) while they are unguarded. Yes this is powerful, I know. Now, for the sake of a more interesting example, lets say Player X (human) voted for Player Y (wolf) back on day 2. Player X’s vote made the end result a KitB between a wolf (Player Y) and Player Z (human) with player Y being the lynchee. By time traveling from N4 back to N1 and wolfing Player X, the wolfs get around the potential guard for the night *puts on RonCo voice* BUT WAIT, THERE’S MORE! Since Player X was (now) killed on N1, his vote for Player Y (wolf) back on D2 is null and void. This makes the end result of D2 some number of votes for Player Z (human) and that number minus 1 for Player Y (wolf), thus the KitB that previously killed Player Y (wolf) will now not exist and the lynchee for D2 will be the person with the most votes: Player Z (human). So, by taking their option to time travel the wolfs: get around a potential guard, kill their target person like intended (Player X), “kill” another human (Player Z) in the past via lynch via timeline change, AND “resurrect” another wolf (Player Y) in the past via lynch via timeline change. This shows that there will clearly be reasons one should time travel as opposed to performing their action within the current night.


So, now, what I need from you all, are the things that I left unanswered. This set of rules and guidelines seems quite complete to me, but I'm sure there is more than can be said and or clarified. Feel free to post any questions in the thread and I will answer them as soon as possible. Providing my idea gets voted to be played in the next TWG, I will explain further small details in the game's opening post and in the players' individual PMs. Let me know what you all think. Take care.

[Tokzic]

This whole thing sounds like extremely confusing chaos.

I like it.

One thing I don't like, though, is how unfair the game seems at first glance. A time travel human won't have nearly the same power as a time travel wolf, as they are completely in the dark as to roles, while wolves know each other, what they can do, etc. Humans are going to need a MASSIVE buff if they're going to stand a chance against wolves.

Still, I'm sure that you know that and have it accounted for. I'd like to see this go.

[FoJaR]

that's not true. think about it.

[Afrobean]

Looks really fun.

One problem is that a lynch could be based entirely on who was killed the previous night. If time traveling happens and someone else is killed, it would affect the lynch of that day, even if the person who died instead had no affect on the lynch before.

It'll still be entirely playable, but it may end up not making sense chronologically at the end.

Ex: Tass is a wolf and attacks Talisman during night 1. Tass gets lynched day 1 because for some reason, only Tass would attack Talisman. Then, later, time traveling happens which saved Talisman from being killed, but Tass is still lynched during day1 for, in the then current timeline, no reason. Does that make sense?

[StoicRoivaS]

@ Tokzic: The game is only as confusing as you are unwilling to think. If you read through my "concrete example", hopefully you'll see that the thought process needed to sort it out is minimal. The people who take the time to think the consequences of their actions through will be heavily rewarded. Secondly, yes I'm aware of the balance issues and have adjusted accordingly. In the original set up the game was heavily human favored, for reasons I cannot say, even with TT wolves. This has all been accounted for and I've done my best to balance it.

@ Afro: I understand completely. This is one of the "smaller details" I think I referred to whilst talking to a few players individually about this idea. Basically, when it comes time to actually play the game, I'll explain a few more things that are technically story, but will explain some game mechanics, i.e. the difference between a physical paradox and a logical paradox. A physical paradox is the kind I described in my description, something that physically will not resolve with all other choices made. While I'm not sure if we will ever find said paradox, I felt the warning was necessary. Secondly, a logical paradox is the kind you describe. One in which everything can happen, but in all practicality, shouldn't, i.e. information being "forgotten/changed/never had/etc". This is explain through the plot element called a "time echo" which is essentially a ripple left of the previous timeleft after someone leaps in time to create a new timeline. All prior information (read: posts) will still be there for all to see. The most current timeline will be updated in the first post of the game as well as the update post I'll give. All past timelines will be availble via previous update posts that I'll give after each night. So essentially the town's people "remember" the past timelines they've experienced, even if their memories don't make sense. Hopefully that clears things up.

Which leads me to another point that you might have already assumed: There will be no night posting. Due to the complexity of sorting things out, I'd prefer all posts be completely separate from all "choices" whenever possible.

[iggymatrixcounter]

I like it, I mean if there are going to be random roles, IMO, that says there are going to not only be a lot of them but that they will be weird too.

I'll have to actually be in the game to actually see if there are going to be a lot of cases where time travel is good. I mean there are specifics but maybe there should be roles that only work if they time travel and change the game somehow or something. I dunno I'm really interested to see where stoic will take this. It's a liberal idea but I like liberal ideas XD.

[Afrobean]

A good lead in to this, I think, would be to run a completely normal game with mystery blues to get people more used to the concept.

[StoicRoivaS]

Is not knowing the roles that foreign of an idea? Instead of trusting whether or not someone is the role they say they are, you're just trusting whether or not the role is in the game (and whether they have it, by coincidence). The roles won't be "weird" so much as they'll be hidden and some of them will have the time travel ability. So you'll see mostly, if not entirely, roles that you've seen before, or heard of in one form or another, but some of them will be able to time travel as well as perform their normal function, that is all.

So, does that mean that everything in my description is relatively clear? I was hoping to fish out some unanswered questions, but if my first draft is spot on, I suppose I could accept that as well. Like I said prevoiusly, things I deem "minor details" will probably be saved for once the game is actually played, if it is played.

[Tokzic]

Originally Posted by Afrobean

A good lead in to this, I think, would be to run a completely normal game with mystery blues to get people more used to the concept.

You mean this hasn't happened?

I had an idea where everyone is a superhero/mutant/whatever and no one knows what anyone else's powers are, but everyone knows the red's powers and blue powers would be revealed (anonymously) at the end of the day/night they are used (HEADLINE: MYSTERIOUS LAVA MAN IS ICED BY A MASKED STRANGER). I didn't develop it much, and I figured someone would have done a similar idea already anyway.

[Afrobean]

The idea was thrown around for a long time, but I don't think it was ever actually done.

Tokzic: that sounds like it'd fit well with that X-men game we did a while back.

[MiniNeo]

Say it's night 4. A person died night two is bought back because of that kitb situation. Would he have, like, a vote on day 3 and 4 since he's (In that time travelling sense) alive?

[StoicRoivaS]

Originally Posted by MiniNeo

Say it's night 4. A person died night two is bought back because of that kitb situation. Would he have, like, a vote on day 3 and 4 since he's (In that time travelling sense) alive?

Did you read the entire 2+ pages above? If your answer is no, I'll point you in the right direction:

Originally Posted by StoicRoivaS

Each night, all players with special roles will PM their choices to me. That means that even if you are dead, you make your choices for that night as if you weren’t. They do not affect the current time line, but in the event that you are brought back on a prior night, all choices will retroactively happen as if you were alive. The same thing applies for voting on a given day’s lynch. If you are alive, you bold your vote in the 1, 2, 3 (#1 being your top choice) fashion described above in the main game thread, like always. If you are dead you are to PM YOUR VOTE TO ME in the same 1, 2, 3 fashion described above. This way I am able to retroactively apply your votes should you be brought back to life.

Don't mean to sound harsh if I do. Just making sure I stated that above like I thought I did.

Cheers.

[MiniNeo]

oops lol k thx

[StoicRoivaS]

Not to make anything overly official, this is just my question thread, but does anyone else have an idea they'd like to run for next game? If I see there is little or zero competition, I'll start writing up some of the more trivial points to my idea and get them ready for play. Basically there will be story elements that are actually relevant to the game play, and I need to work out exactly how these things play out. If everyone is in agreement, I'll get my ideas together as soon as possible and hopefully we can get a game going sometime soon.

[FoJaR]

this just gave me an idea.

[StoicRoivaS]

Originally Posted by FoJaR

this just gave me an idea.

...

[FoJaR]

just a game with all hidden roles.

[shrimpy]

I like this game.

[StoicRoivaS]

Thanks

Apparently a game with all hidden roles has never been tried here. I thought the concept was quite standard in my readings of how Mafia/TWG works on other mediums/sites. Either way, it's part of the game design for a good, but undisclosed reason. It will make it more fun and more balanced.

[iggymatrixcounter]

Originally Posted by iggymatrixcounter

I'm really interested to see where stoic will take this. It's a liberal idea but I like liberal ideas XD.

That and I want to see what these details will include.

But I can't help but think if it will be balanced or not. Probably but I dunno I'm not sure of where stoic is drawing the line to see where the game goes.

Which is why I want to see it played, going in half blind works well for me XD.