TWG 204 - Forest Feast POST-GAME THREAD

[bugkid666]

* Forest Feast *

Setup:

9 Players

* 2 Termites

* 6 Trees

* 1 Exterminator

Game Rules:

* Termites have a single factional night action. They may choose to swarm a single target, or to devour all previously swarmed targets.

* Exterminator blocks the swarming of a target ONLY on the night in which they are being swarmed.

* Trees become Tree-stumps upon being eliminated via the Day vote, allowing them to continue posting in the thread.

* Exterminator, Trees, Tree-stumps, and Termites are all vulnerable to being swarmed and devoured.

* Tree-stumps cannot vote, and do not count as a vote for endgame purposes.

** Players are not told when they are swarmed, Termites are not told if the swarming was successful.

*** There is a post count minimum: each player will be required to make 5 game-related posts due 90 minutes before each EoD each day phase. Failure to meet the minimum will result in a modkill.

* The post deadline is 90 minutes before EoD. There is a 30 minute host-verification period to check post count and game-related posts in the event of a severely inactive player. Any modkills will be announced at approximately 1 hour before EoD, but the flip for any modkilled player will be withheld until after EoD. No votes will count from or against the player who is modkilled. Voting for said player will be equivalent to a "No-lynch" vote. The modkilled player will be required to stop posting.

* Game related posts are defined as, "posts containing player comments/feedback/thoughts relating to any game actions, events, or other game-related interactions between players".

* Note that I will only be using the above definition to disqualify posts as "game related" above the posting minimum if a player is severely absent for the majority of the phase and tries to squeeze by with bare minimum posts. Warning will not be given. Please play the game you sign up for.

General Info:

* Phases are 48/24 revolving around 11:00PM Server Time

* KitB: On

* OoTC: Off (except for Termitechat).

* Roleflips: On

* Nighttalk: Off (except for Termitechat).

* NoLynch/Nokill: On

* Insta: On

* MYLO/LYLO Votes Locked: On

Role PMs

Welcome to [TWG 204]: Forest Feast!
You crave nature, trees and other plant matter. The sight of the forest outside of your home fills you with desire. If you could just find a way to devour it all, you might finally satiate your never ending hunger. Actually....that kind of sounds like a good idea...

You are a Termite, along with your partner [PLAYER]. You may post in the thread and vote as you see fit. Your additional abilities are listed below.

Abilities

Factional Communication: During any phase you may talk with your partner [HERE].

Factional Meal Prep: Each night phase either you or your partner may take one and only one of the the following actions:

* Swarm a target to ready them for your next meal.

* Devour all previously swarmed targets by eating them whole, leaving nothing behind.

Win Condition

You win when only Termite aligned players are left alive, or nothing can prevent this from occurring.

Welcome to [TWG 204]: Forest Feast!
Your leaves are green, your roots are long, and the creatures of the forest marvel at your very sight. Your life is simple, and quite frankly, that's exactly how you like it. Kind of makes you wonder though...how long will things stay that way?

You are a Tree, and aligned with the Forest. You may post in the thread and vote as you see fit. Your additional abilities are listed below.

Abilities

Stumped: Upon being eliminated via the Day vote you become Tree-stumped. This means you will still be allowed to post in the thread, but you will not have a vote. Being killed in any other way overrides this ability, and will cause you to be removed from the game.

Win Condition

You win when only Forest aligned players are left alive.

Welcome to [TWG 402]: Forest Feast!
You love nature, trees, and things that are green. However, you HATE insects and have made it your life’s mission to kill them all, especially the ones who threaten the beauty of the forest near your home. Pesky bugs better watch their backs!

You are an Exterminator, and aligned with the Forest. You may post in the thread and vote as you see fit. Your additional abilities are listed below.

Abilities

Swarm Prevention: Each night phase you may choose one other player to douse with insect repellent. The doused player will be immune to being swarmed for consumption during that night phase.

Win Condition

You win when only Forest aligned players are left alive.

Player List:

1: ShadoWolfe - Tree, won at end game
2: Roundbox - Tree, won at end game
3: Charu - Exterminator, won at end game
4: WaywardVagabond - Termite, modkilled D1
5: Hateandhatred - Tree-stump, won at end game
6: Tps222 - Tree, won at end game
7: FFA - Tree, won at end game
8: DaBackpack - Tree, won at end game
9: mellonxcollie (Raeko) - Termite, lynched D0

[Charu]

Run this again, plz

The concept really didn't kick off at all.

[Hateandhatred]

Originally Posted by Charu

Run this again, plz

The concept really didn't kick off at all.

I agree. This game got incredibly unfair towards termite extremely quickly.

[bugkid666]

Originally Posted by Charu

Run this again, plz

The concept really didn't kick off at all.

i'm frankly a little discouraged to run it again >< maybe in a few games, i'll retry. it was a nice first hosting experience tho!

[ShadoWolfe]

Originally Posted by bugkid666

i'm frankly a little discouraged to run it again >< maybe in a few games, i'll retry. it was a nice first hosting experience tho!

whyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[ShadoWolfe]

defo run it again

[ShadoWolfe]

it's a damn shame we lynched H&H.

I almost wish the modkill hadn't happened, but there's no winning there /shrug

GG all it was a banger of a D0

[flashflash account]

Run it again

[Hateandhatred]

I also think that:

1: the player pool should be larger. The main gimmick is that wolves can hit multiple targets at a time, but with 9 players, it seems hard to introduce into play.

or

2: maybe allow 2 swarms a night OR a devour action?

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by Hateandhatred

I also think that:

1: the player pool should be larger. The main gimmick is that wolves can hit multiple targets at a time, but with 9 players, it seems hard to introduce into play.

or

2: maybe allow 2 swarms a night OR a devour action?

Yeah, I was thinking along these lines as well. Or maybe a third option is just "do a regular nightkill", and the swarm mechanic is still useful for the sake of doing the thanos snap

[bugkid666]

Originally Posted by Hateandhatred

I also think that:

1: the player pool should be larger. The main gimmick is that wolves can hit multiple targets at a time, but with 9 players, it seems hard to introduce into play.

or

2: maybe allow 2 swarms a night OR a devour action?

I think this game does deserve a larger pool. I literally ripped the template off of mafia dot org or whatever it's called and then reskinned it to be bug-themed for my own selfish desires

[bugkid666]

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar

H&H, what good did hammering someone you knew was town do for your win condition?

Game should have ended when last termite was modkilled. Had I been forced to play a literal worthless EOD I feel I would be upset

Otherwise this was a neat concept

had it not been less than an hour to EOD, I would have ended it right away. tonight was a weird night for me, and I wasn't expecting to be out when someone would have to be modkilled. major props to T-Force for helping me out. it definitely felt a lot less stressful to know that he was around to help

[MixMasterLar]

Originally Posted by bugkid666

had it not been less than an hour to EOD, I would have ended it right away. tonight was a weird night for me, and I wasn't expecting to be out when someone would have to be modkilled. major props to T-Force for helping me out. it definitely felt a lot less stressful to know that he was around to help

I mean if you had IRL stuff that just made it easier to let it ride out then that's understandable but if the main factor was the time left, I dunno I guess all I have to say is I disagree hard

If abled, games should end when win condition are met. The standard wincons always include or nothing can prevent this from happening after all.

Well, that's my two cents anyway as someone who wasn't even playing

[thesunfan]

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar

I mean if you had IRL stuff that just made it easier to let it ride out then that's understandable but if the main factor was the time left, I dunno I guess all I have to say is I disagree hard

If abled, games should end when win condition are met. The standard wincons always include or nothing can prevent this from happening after all.

Well, that's my two cents anyway as someone who wasn't even playing

it becomes possible to angleshoot whether someone is town or mafia before they're supposed to know that

ideally, modkills shouldn't happen, but we all know reality differs from the ideal

modkills should take the place of the daykill, otherwise wolves are (on average) heavily disadvantaged since town essentially gets a free kill

[MixMasterLar]

Originally Posted by thesunfan

it becomes possible to angleshoot whether someone is town or mafia before they're supposed to know that

I'm not saying they should flip early
All scum where dead and town won, yet the game continued; I'm saying once win conditions are met the game should end

[thesunfan]

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar

I'm not saying they should flip early
All scum where dead and town won, yet the game continued; I'm saying once win conditions are met the game should end

ok so in the world where this happens
people know that wayward is town by the game continuing, and know that he's a wolf if it doesn't
don't you see the problem there?

[ShadoWolfe]

Originally Posted by thesunfan

modkills should take the place of the daykill, otherwise wolves are (on average) heavily disadvantaged since town essentially gets a free kill

town gets hurt worse than wolves do when modkills need to happen, but you want to then also punish them further by taking away their lynch for a phase?

except for very few scenarios, modkills benefit wolves more. both the action (thinning town's numbers), and the cause (an inactive player) benefit wolves and hurt town.

as you said, modkills shouldn't have to happen. so assess it with me. they have to happen because of an MIA player. I say MIA because 5 posts over 48 hours is a very low bar to hit, and failing that means you aren't even playing the game.

So if the game is designed for 9 town and 2 wolves, the modkill in most cases forces that to 8 town and 2 wolves, instantly shifting the balance to wolves.

the only "benefit" to town in the whole thing is that the harm of the cause, (the inactive player that is already hurting town and negatively impacting the entire game), does not compound further by allowing the non-player to give wolves a SECOND free town (thereby thinning the town herd by both the inactive player and the subsequent nightkill). Modkilling only counteracts the compounding effect, but the harm to town is already done.

It makes no sense to add further harm by removing the lynch. By that logic, modkills should never ever happen under any circumstance because then, at least, the lynch control isn't stolen from town.

[the sun fan]

Originally Posted by ShadoWolfe

town gets hurt worse than wolves do when modkills need to happen, but you want to then also punish them further by taking away their lynch for a phase?

except for very few scenarios, modkills benefit wolves more. both the action (thinning town's numbers), and the cause (an inactive player) benefit wolves and hurt town.

as you said, modkills shouldn't have to happen. so assess it with me. they have to happen because of an MIA player. I say MIA because 5 posts over 48 hours is a very low bar to hit, and failing that means you aren't even playing the game.

So if the game is designed for 9 town and 2 wolves, the modkill in most cases forces that to 8 town and 2 wolves, instantly shifting the balance to wolves.

the only "benefit" to town in the whole thing is that the harm of the cause, (the inactive player that is already hurting town and negatively impacting the entire game), does not compound further by allowing the non-player to give wolves a SECOND free town (thereby thinning the town herd by both the inactive player and the subsequent nightkill). Modkilling only counteracts the compounding effect, but the harm to town is already done.

It makes no sense to add further harm by removing the lynch. By that logic, modkills should never ever happen under any circumstance because then, at least, the lynch control isn't stolen from town.

I mean to respond to the modkill discussion in general, but I'll just quote this post to save space

this post will also only discuss modkills during a day phase, particularly those that occur towards the end of a day phase. Modkills outside of a day phase are pretty rare anyways. I recall charu once getting modkilled in an anon-game nightphase, and ffa getting nightkilled during the pregame phase, but I think every other modkill that's happened on FFR has been during a day phase, or as the dayphase ends (basically in conjunction with the lynch, like when star and I modkilled tamburini in the most recent Fire Emblem game)

town does not get hurt worse than wolves when modkills happen during a day phase... like the vast majority of the time. This is assuming a modkill does not take the place of the lynch. The vast majority of the time, modkills occur for inactivity on FFR (which btw is the least offensive type of modkill to the integrity of the game. I'll stop with the cutaway thoughts but yeah, its good that inactivity is the main problem, rather than angleshooting or cheating or something)

Because most modkills occur because of inactivity, town eliminates a player who is almost always a ? for the solve, and it harms wolves to lose this regardless of whether the player was a wolf or not in almost all scenarios (the player can be a PR, or be a greencheck from an invest role or something, but I think we can all at least acknowledge what I'm arguing here).

The argument here of the cause (inactivity) benefitting wolves is correct, but the modkill deals with that as effectively as a day-vigi could. It does rob town of a lynch, but that player was likely in the POE, and it thins the POE nearly exclusively as a result.

Wolves win the game by escaping the POE. Granting town what is almost guaranteed to be two shots at killing a wolf (or an evil, for the sake of my following example) when there normally would be one. If anyone recalls the Corporations anon game, a late modkill virtually speedran the game because the 2nd to last threat to town was modkilled, leaving town with a chance to immediately look for the serial killer-esque role, which was immediately found.

Most games are also balanced around odd starting numbers with a day start, with wolves able to kill max 1 player per night. I won't explain the math of this entirely, but modkills (especially when compounding) grant town like an adrenaline shot of early info if they don't take the place of a lynch. Its classic "I'll gladly pay tomorrow for a hamburger today."

also it can incentivize getting modkilled in order to solve a game btw. it is inarguable that, for example, getting modkilled in a game with a f4 as town that is in the POE could benefit town's win% immensely. In this situation it is absolutely tantamount that the modkill take the place of the lynch.

-----------------------------------
Lastly, and not related to any of my argument,

I appreciate all discussion around modkills immensely. They're kind of camp-y in the way that art can be so gauche that it becomes artistic. People are kinda fixated on them as a result, I guess. It is interesting to see such discussion around this topic, and I know the main reasoning for it is because of the new rules that appear destined to be written in most/all OPs of games. We do need to figure out a standard where the most people are happy with the result, and discussion is how we do it, so I'm glad to see such engagement on it. Maybe part of it has to do with the game being so drama-free?
Glad to see it regardless of the cause.

[mellon_collie]

rolling wolf twice in a row is annoying

trying to play lying game with your husband is annoying

[roundbox]

Originally Posted by mellon_collie

rolling wolf twice in a row is annoying

trying to play lying game with your husband is annoying

I'm scared when I roll wolf and you roll town
that's why I am submitting a setup and hoping I host