DP/RATO move to tokens?

[TheSaxRunner05]

Originally Posted by Xx{Fallen}xX

RATO and DP are relics of a time where ffr's standards were much lower, and just like the legacy files i think something should be done about them.

Agreed as well. The trouble with DP and RATO (and CP for that matter) is truly the quality of the file. We will have much better files in the future from the new D7 division which may reach as high as Death Piano in difficulty. (DP is the least shitty of the 3 imo).

I'm not just hating on hard files either. I love playing Do I Smile and System Doctor and J Vu, but RATO especially is just a joke of a file.

[TC_Halogen]

RATO is blatantly overstepped; people had analyzed the file after it came out.

Death Piano is an accurately stepped file that is 100% unforgiving.

For me, the problem isn't the files themselves -- it's the game's scoring mechanics. If the game was raw scoring, I'm sure this argument wouldn't be happening at all.

[mi40]

hey can we have this vote thing for making higher rates count in levelranks too?

[ilikexd]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

RATO is blatantly overstepped; people had analyzed the file after it came out.

Death Piano is an accurately stepped file that is 100% unforgiving.

RATO is accurately stepped. It certainly could have been stepped easier with less layering or more lenient patterns, but so could DP.

DP isn't even totally accurately stepped.
It's offsync. And the 24th notes next to the long 24th trills are 32nds.

[mi40]

DP: keep ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ
RATO: remove ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ

[TheSaxRunner05]

Token chain:
Pass revo to unlock DP
Pass DP to Unlock RATO
Pass RATO to unlock CP

:]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

For me, the problem isn't the files themselves -- it's the game's scoring mechanics. If the game was raw scoring, I'm sure this argument wouldn't be happening at all.

Same. What is the point of having public scores on songs essentially no one can really pull off decent ranks on, without blatant disregard for actually being rhythmically accurate (ie: mashing everything)? Personally I feel this way about the leader-boards in general, but especially with these two files, combo scoring ruins any sort of actual skill representation for even most D7 players. If combo scoring is here to stay, files like this shouldn't really be around affecting public average ranks. It's just mashing for pretty much everyone, period.

What would be cool is if RATO / DP get moved, the leader-boards get wiped (unless you want your score to stay). Then people won't give a shit about FC'ing them because they aren't public, and we can see a much better representation of player skill with PA. I'd personally love to replace my shit mashed FC's with my nice PA runs. Perhaps that is just me though, how would others feel about something like that?

[EzExZeRo7497]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

RATO is blatantly overstepped; people had analyzed the file after it came out.

Death Piano is an accurately stepped file that is 100% unforgiving.

For me, the problem isn't the files themselves -- it's the game's scoring mechanics. If the game was raw scoring, I'm sure this argument wouldn't be happening at all.

This is exactly why I feel that these files should be moved. If it was raw scoring I'd personally don't care about RATO and DP being moved to tokens. But since it's a combo-based game, I'd much rather see it as tokens because the score spread is just... ridiculously large and I don't think it will change any time soon. It's more on the fact that files like this are just not suitable for a combo-based game like this. I understand that there should be files that should be hard to FC but also should be in the leaderboards, but for files like RATO and DP, people just mindlessly mash the entire thing just to get a respectable rank. If they're in token ranks, they'd probably be more inclined to PA it instead.

Slightly off topic, but I'd much rather see CP outside token ranks as well.

[TheSaxRunner05]

It wouldn't be so bad if every time a player went to improve their rank, it only meant mashing more combo, you all have a point.
I am also convinced that at least half of the CP FC's are from dual set up anyways, maybe even some of the RATO ones as well.

[ilikexd]

I do agree that the scoring on specifically these files and a few others is totally askew, and in playing them one is guided to semi-mash, hit accurately where possible but mash to make sure combo isn't broken, which is not a very fun "strategy".

I just don't think the problem should be associated with / blamed on the files themselves. They aren't bad or jokes.

Since switching FFR to raw scoring will probably not happen, it would be cool to see DP & RATO + a few others ranked on raw scoring. Seems like a stretch, though.

[Jerry DB]

It seems like the new philosophy anyways is to make these kind of files into tokens and I definitely agree. There is still a ton of discrepancy among skill levels when it comes to songs level 95 and under so I don't see why we need to push the limits beyond what is comfortable. The pressure to play those ridiculous songs can lead to hand injuries as well. If they were tokens people could still try them out, but there wouldn't be a ridiculous sense to whore them or improve your rank which really could be harmful to your hands. With the nature of these songs it is best to just try them every now and then to see how you do on them, not to constantly play them over and over again because you keep getting only 1 miss or whatever the situation is.

[Doug31]

Originally Posted by TheSaxRunner05

Token chain:
Pass revo to unlock DP
Pass DP to Unlock RATO
Pass RATO to unlock CP

:]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

You know the problem with this? Revo v2 is already unlocked by passing Revo.

[ilikexd]

Originally Posted by Jerry DB

It seems like the new philosophy anyways is to make these kind of files into tokens and I definitely agree. There is still a ton of discrepancy among skill levels when it comes to songs level 95 and under so I don't see why we need to push the limits beyond what is comfortable. The pressure to play those ridiculous songs can lead to hand injuries as well. If they were tokens people could still try them out, but there wouldn't be a ridiculous sense to whore them or improve your rank which really could be harmful to your hands. With the nature of these songs it is best to just try them every now and then to see how you do on them, not to constantly play them over and over again because you keep getting only 1 miss or whatever the situation is.

Pushing the limit beyond what is comfortable is the essence of improving... in anything.

You can sustain injuries at song levels much below 95. It doesn't matter how hard something is. Your body usually gives warning signs before a repetitive stress injury, and if you heed them and take breaks when necessary, you can avoid injury. This has little to do with certain difficulty. I got minor tendinitis from playing nonstop when I was only playing files around difficulty 75. I could've avoided it, and there were signs, but I didn't.

I don't think this is a good argument and I don't much like the idea of the token ranks as being some sort of trash can to shove away all "those files nobody wants to have to play".

[Doug31]

I've been thinking and decided that it depends what level ranks are supposed to measure. If it's how good a player is, we need harder songs in it since goodness at harder songs is part of how good a player is. And eventually players could be good enough to AAA everything in regular level ranks, and the requirements to get in the highest division could be to AAA the entire public level rank and then have some good scores on token level ranks since some people that AAA'd everything public might still not be good enough. Could someone please tell me what exactly it is that average rank is supposed to measure?

[Fission]

average rank refers to your rank on the song leader boards.

an average rank of 1 would mean that you have rank 1 on every public file; not necessarily all AAAs, though.

[Jerry DB]

Originally Posted by ilikexd

Pushing the limit beyond what is comfortable is the essence of improving... in anything.

You can sustain injuries at song levels much below 95. It doesn't matter how hard something is. Your body usually gives warning signs before a repetitive stress injury, and if you heed them and take breaks when necessary, you can avoid injury. This has little to do with certain difficulty. I got minor tendinitis from playing nonstop when I was only playing files around difficulty 75. I could've avoided it, and there were signs, but I didn't.

I don't think this is a good argument and I don't much like the idea of the token ranks as being some sort of trash can to shove away all "those files nobody wants to have to play".

I completely understand what your saying and it is a very good point. It's just there is a clear human barrier that starts to arise as you reach level 95. I mean even dossar has to constantly shake his hands when playing these songs and you can see it puts a ton of stress on him. I love the idea of breaking barriers but there comes a point when there really is a limit. Not to say that it can't be pushed and someone great can't surpass them. When that day comes maybe it would make more sense but right now I don't see anybody moving their hands fast enough without acquiring injury. I mean when the limit appears to be ready for these kind of files sure, but right now it seems unnecessary. To say rsi injuries have little to do with difficulty is a pretty big exaggeration as well, you DEFINITELY have to be careful to make sure your form is right and you have to take breaks when your body tells you the higher in difficulty you go. I mean everybody is different so the standards aren't the same. I just think it makes more sense as a token, it's not like trashing them, they are still there and people can still gawk at the scores you get, but only like 2-3 people can even take these songs semi seriously. To make them public for the whole community to have to play to improve their rank, yet 99.9 percent of them are mashing it and probably hurting themselves, yea it should probably be a token. I am definitely not saying you can't push the limits though, it's just a logical thing to do.

[hi19hi19]

Pass -easy classical file- to unlock Death Piano
Pass Death Piano to unlock RATO
Pass RATO to unlock Crowdpleaser

the ultimate troll token chain
"oh wow it's called Crowdpleaser it must be a great file"
finally gets there "really, moogy"

I'd be okay with leaving Death Piano public (it IS accurately stepped, just patterned terribly and unforgiving) but I'm all in favor of RATO and Crowdpleaser being moved.

[Dynam0]

Originally Posted by Jerry DB

I completely understand what your saying and it is a very good point. It's just there is a clear human barrier that starts to arise as you reach level 95. I mean even dossar has to constantly shake his hands when playing these songs and you can see it puts a ton of stress on him.

Umm...there are people who have whored last winged unicorn on SM (no names lmfao EZE) which is basically the most 'stressful' parts of death piano for 6+ minutes with small breaks. You would never get an acute injury from playing a rhythm game unless you did something really odd...and it's already been mentioned that there are warning signs when you've played too hard/much. Not a convincing argument for this imo

Also my FC on CP was pure vibro btw, took a lot of tries tho

[popsicle_3000]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

I mean, I would kill for my September 2010 run of RATO to be recorded:

how far back can you submit to unrecorded scores?

Originally Posted by ilikexd

RATO is accurately stepped.

play it at 0.5x and tell me you still feel the same way...


as for OP, move them.
and move CP as well... new token req to unlock CP, not too hard, and then it's another 'fun' chain.

edit: interesting, i'd have thought there'd be a bigger majority in the poll to move them

[DossarLX ODI]

So I come back to find this thread and it exploded pretty fast!

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

DP and RATO have absolutely ridiculous score spreads and most certainly won't change anytime soon.

Right, and I don't support heavy mashing to get an FC on these files. They're so disproportionately harder to get good accuracy with an FC compared to the rest of the public songs that it's essentially an insult to the players who are putting in the effort to improve their public ranks. Moving to token ranks would be incentive to go for accuracy rather than mash hard.

Also I don't think anyone actually finds scoring on RATO or DP fun if they have to FC it. Those files have too many parts to screw up, especially at the end (fuckin' Death Piano 11-0-0-0)