Drugs

[TehWhack]

For someone who is currently writing personal/general documentation pertaining to ergolines, Cannabis, and Salvia Divinorum; this thread makes me sad. Then again, I always expect drug threads on casual forums to be like this. Luckily, this is much better than the majority I've seen.

I do agree with Vendetta's mentality though. I realize that we're talking about mind altering substances, but it's too broad for Critical Thinking. Same kind of broad aspect if a topic were to be called something like "European Countries". Oh well, I suppose I expect too much.

My contribution to the thread: The Union

^ Watch this movie ^

P.S. - For the sake of accuracy (and personal pet peeves), I hope people can refer to "acid" for talk on current blotter/experience and "LSD" for the historical aspect of it (wink wink Aperson).

[aperson]

Originally Posted by TehWhack

P.S. - For the sake of accuracy (and personal pet peeves), I hope people can refer to "acid" for talk on current blotter/experience and "LSD" for the historical aspect of it (wink wink Aperson).

Why? Because sometimes your blotter paper is full of DOB? When you drop a hit of acid you're taking LSD-25, plus a few random impurities, so I really don't get why the arbitrary distinction is necessary.

[blade_anime]

I will say this, I am VERY strongly against illegal drugs, but I would like to mention that although I do not condone recreational use of pot, I do think that it should be legal for it to be used for medicinal purposes. I also believe that it should be taken in forms other than smoking it. Also, I find it interesting that people say it's fine to use it recreationally but they don't mention recreational use of prescription medication. It always pisses me off when people mention how harmful some of the contents of prescription medications are. Yes, they are harmful, which is why you need to have a prescription from your doctor to use it. People die by misusing prescription drugs.

[Vendetta21]

Originally Posted by blade_anime

Yes, they are harmful, which is why you need to have a prescription from your doctor to use it. People die by misusing prescription drugs.

You don't believe that people can educate themselves enough to understand the effects of the drug they are using and use it in such a way that is responsible? You don't believe there exists a type of person capable of this?

People with ADHD take Adderall daily to cure a behavioral problem that is only really seen as a problem in modern Western society, and is likely induced by aspects of modern Western society. If either of these sentiments are even remotely true then I wonder if by your morality it is okay for someone to take this drug in the fashion that they do. Is it?

Is it wrong for someone who researches and understands the effects of adderall to take it without a prescription for a purpose that it will help them accomplish? (I.E. studying.) Studying is also a problem that only exists in modern society and they are also using the drug to help alleviate the difficulty of this modern problem.

The only real deciding factor here is possible conditions that the drug could trigger. If we assume that they have gone to the doctor and their health is in the right place in order to not get any adverse effects from the drug, is it then wrong for them to take the drug without a prescription?

Is a Doctor's note the thing that defines morality with drugs? What about incompetent doctors? What about crooked doctors?

[Emo_Saur_]

People die by misusing prescription drugs.

No one dies by a direct cause of Marijuana, does that mean we all need a doctor's prescription for using it?

The Union

The good thing about this movie is that it shows both sides of the story somewhat. It shows some of the negatives for the legalization of Marijuana, but many up-sides. By far, the up-sides outnumber the negatives by a long shot though.

[Shaydow]

Originally Posted by Vendetta21

You don't believe that people can educate themselves enough to understand the effects of the drug they are using and use it in such a way that is responsible? You don't believe there exists a type of person capable of this?

People with ADHD take Adderall daily to cure a behavioral problem that is only really seen as a problem in modern Western society, and is likely induced by aspects of modern Western society. If either of these sentiments are even remotely true then I wonder if by your morality it is okay for someone to take this drug in the fashion that they do. Is it?

Is it wrong for someone who researches and understands the effects of adderall to take it without a prescription for a purpose that it will help them accomplish? (I.E. studying.) Studying is also a problem that only exists in modern society and they are also using the drug to help alleviate the difficulty of this modern problem.

The only real deciding factor here is possible conditions that the drug could trigger. If we assume that they have gone to the doctor and their health is in the right place in order to not get any adverse effects from the drug, is it then wrong for them to take the drug without a prescription?

Is a Doctor's note the thing that defines morality with drugs? What about incompetent doctors? What about crooked doctors?

I like this argument, I want to reiterate the bolded part of the quote above. Any sensible adult should be able to know moderation, when it is and when it is not an appropriate time to use recreational drugs AND Alcohol, and how to conduct themselves when they are under the influence. HOWEVER, I will agree sensability is lacking in most people.

[blade_anime]

Researching a drug's effects does not mean that you know how to properly use it, even with thorough research, there is still the distinct possibility that you missed an important facet. There is a good reason that they have a liscense and you don't. Saying that one can do it with nothing but independant research is akin saying that you can solve crimes because you watch CSI. You shouldn't take somebody elses prescription medication even if you have a prescription for the same medication. Do you know why? Dosages and concentraction for most prescription drugs are measured carefully and can vary wildly from person to person. These are measurements and decisions that the average person is not qualified to make.

I would like to note, by the way, that my initial comment was about the fact that one shouldn't say that illicit drugs should be legal because of a prescription medication being potentially just as harmful. Prescription medication is regulated, ilicit drugs are not.


Yes, incompetant and crooked doctors exist, that's why there's such a thing as a malpractice lawsuit.

In my view, it is perfectly acceptable for people to take Prescription medication for things such as ADHD because, even if it's not recognized elsewhere, it is recognized where the prescription is being filled out and it is what the drug is made be used for.


Lastly, people who use prescription medication without a prescription typically can't get the prescription for a reason. If you want to take a drug such as Adderall to help you study, consult with your physician, who knows? He just might give you a prescription and if not, he can tell you why.

[Vendetta21]

Originally Posted by blade_anime

I ****ing love status-quoism. Also I love deflecting rather than answering direct questions.

Okay so your moral compass works roughly like this:
1. Some people are stupid about things
2. We must protect them from their own stupidity
3. Therefore everyone is judged by the same moral code wrt drugs that protects stupid people from their stupidity
4. This is only true for drugs that don't have historical social stratification (i.e. alcohol, tobacco)

[blade_anime]

Are you kidding me? I am one of the biggest anti-tobacco people I know. I HATE tobacco. Also, part of the problem isn't just protecting people from their own stupidity, its protecting others from it as well. Ever hear of roid rage? Or stories about drunk fathers or mothers abusing their families? Additionally, part of the reason that people can be stupid about that sort of thing is due to all of the misinformation out there. How many people do you know who first tried drugs thinking "Hm, this might be an enlightening/educational experience" as opposed to those pressured into it by their peers or those who saw it as "cool" or "hip?"

Also, it's not very polite to quote somebody as saying something that they never actually said so as to mock them. I'm honestly expecting a bit more maturity in here than that.

[rajdaddy]

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

It would probably help the cause if it weren't a bunch of stoners shouting LEGALIZE MARIJUANA MANNN! Which probably leads the people whose decision it is to make it legal kind of weary that if it's legalized, all that will happen is there will be more people driving stoned and killing innocent people.

I have to chime in.

We live in a democracy, even though its a diluted fukerd up version of it, we still do.

What you actually shouldve said was it would help the cause if those bunch of stoners got up off there bongs and pipes and hookahs and went into a voting booth, voted, and got it legalized.

Oh and no offense to the stoners, I myself enjoy plenty of gods gift.

[ffraxis]

Originally Posted by blade_anime

Are you kidding me? I am one of the biggest anti-tobacco people I know. I HATE tobacco. Also, part of the problem isn't just protecting people from their own stupidity, its protecting others from it as well. Ever hear of roid rage? Or stories about drunk fathers or mothers abusing their families? Additionally, part of the reason that people can be stupid about that sort of thing is due to all of the misinformation out there. How many people do you know who first tried drugs thinking "Hm, this might be an enlightening/educational experience" as opposed to those pressured into it by their peers or those who saw it as "cool" or "hip?"

Also, it's not very polite to quote somebody as saying something that they never actually said so as to mock them. I'm honestly expecting a bit more maturity in here than that.

Shamans in the southern americas put salvia in a quid salvia, drink Ayahuasca and mescaline all for spiritual awareness and enlightenment (in fact its not restricted to just shamans, some people get curious and try drugs for themselves).

Curious thing about roid rage, saw a documentary a while ago on steroids, and its been argued to be long term good for you at the expense of your gonads short term. In fact the term roid rage is actually just due to the hormone inbalance of the sudden testosterone increase which some teens may experience during puberty (subjective to people based on hormones, food, environment and all sorts of factors). Its also used to treat injuries, aids and has quite a lot of good uses. That being said, it can be abused like anything and if used properly can increase life expectancy.

[Vendetta21]

Originally Posted by blade_anime

Also, it's not very polite to quote somebody as saying something that they never actually said so as to mock them. I'm honestly expecting a bit more maturity in here than that.

Actually I just wanted to say what I meant in as few of words as possible.

Are you kidding me? I am one of the biggest anti-tobacco people I know. I HATE tobacco. Also, part of the problem isn't just protecting people from their own stupidity, its protecting others from it as well. Ever hear of roid rage? Or stories about drunk fathers or mothers abusing their families? Additionally, part of the reason that people can be stupid about that sort of thing is due to all of the misinformation out there. How many people do you know who first tried drugs thinking "Hm, this might be an enlightening/educational experience" as opposed to those pressured into it by their peers or those who saw it as "cool" or "hip?"

I actually know a shitload of people who have tried drugs because they wanted to know what it was like and less who were peer pressured, but this may be indicative of my personal circle or my level of maturity. Regardless, anecdotal evidence is weak and useless.

More importantly though, each of those drugs is a different drug and should be looked at specifically. We cannot bunch all of those items into the same category "Drugs" and say that all of the negative things alcohol, tobacco, and steroids do are the inherently qualities of "Drugs" as a general concept (similarly ignoring any possible benefit.) Then we are just turning "Drugs" into The Great Destroyer.

So when discussing Adderall, whether or not people cannot control their rage on steroids doesn't matter one bit.

Which brings us back to the original question about morality: so there does not exist a case where someone can educate themselves about a drug (Adderall) and use it for some purpose its not specifically designed for (power-studying) without a prescription (because a prescription is time-consuming and expensive to get for that narrow purpose) without this act being morally reprehensible?

[blade_anime]

No, but it would be ill advised in my opinion. I would seriously ask a doctor. What WOULD be morally reprehensible would be to hand them out to your friends or sell them for profit.

[AsphyxZero]

I've actually been hooked up with a shroom connect for when I get back to Vegas. Anyone have anything to say about them?

[Vendetta21]

Originally Posted by blade_anime

No, but it would be ill advised in my opinion. I would seriously ask a doctor. What WOULD be morally reprehensible would be to hand them out to your friends or sell them for profit.

Adderall is reportedly widely used as a "study drug" at many universities. Adderall is reported to help focus energy and concentration to a much higher level than normal. It enables the user to focus and stay awake.[34] Stories of students writing papers continuously for an unusually long time, or "cramming" all night for an exam with no loss of energy or concentration are common. William Frankenberger, a psychology professor at the University of Wisconsin- Eau Claire, led a study at the university in 2004 that reported 14% of the campus had used some form of ADHD drug, including Adderall.[34] College campuses known to be highly competitive or have a high rate of binge drinking had up to 25% of students use an ADHD medication within one year, a survey of students at 119 colleges across the country concluded.[34] Other forms of ADHD medication used as a performance-enhancing drug include methylphenidate preparations, such as Ritalin and Concerta. Some over the counter drugs, such as Ephedrine, are also used.[35]

25% usage at competitive universities? Hmmmm. It's almost as if to be an accomplished member of society it can help to use these types of drugs. What happens to the morality of usage if it reaches a point where in order to remain competitive at some Universities you must use this performance enhancing study drug?

I mean it goes counter to your intuition here: people are using it in order to get a college degree, which is about bettering their life. And if there exists a degree where 80-90% of people use adderall to study for exams (maybe Engineering at a competitive school) it begins to throw your argument here into a sketchy area. Your problem with this type of drug is that you believe it ruins people's lives. In some cases it may better their life.

To submit that they must get a prescription for this drug means that they must, on top of college, be able to afford insurance that can cover multiple doctor visits and a prescription for the drug. This means that only a percentage of students can use this route because of financial restrictions. Since the drug is only needed in small quantities though, it is cheaper to buy a couple pills to prep for an examination rather than go through the expensive process of getting a prescription.

If I have a prescription because my family has good insurance and I am using it to study for a hard engineering exam, is it immoral to give it to my friend who does not have good insurance and is having an equally hard time completing the exam? Or do you really believe in making morality a thing that is wielded by your income class?

[Garquillex]

I don't think society is advanced enough to be able to handle marijuana, which I think may even degenerate or further stagnate the progress of society. It really doesn't matter if it doesn't have bad physical side effects or could increase tax revenue. I think the market is already progressing faster than society, which is bad for us, and I think marijuana would further separate the two. The reason being that marijuana tends to overemphasize feelings over thought or inexplicably infuses them; while not inherently wrong, I don't think we're capable enough yet of separating them to further blur the borders.

Which leads me to...

Originally Posted by XXXsmittyXXX

How is there no such thing as an opinion on drugs? What if you happen to LIKE drugs, good or bad,? Pretty sure liking them is an opinion.

Liking them is a preference, not to be confused with an opinion. One of the misconceptions limiting society.

Originally Posted by Vendetta21

25% usage at competitive universities? Hmmmm. It's almost as if to be an accomplished member of society it can help to use these types of drugs. What happens to the morality of usage if it reaches a point where in order to remain competitive at some Universities you must use this performance enhancing study drug?

I mean it goes counter to your intuition here: people are using it in order to get a college degree, which is about bettering their life. And if there exists a degree where 80-90% of people use adderall to study for exams (maybe Engineering at a competitive school) it begins to throw your argument here into a sketchy area. Your problem with this type of drug is that you believe it ruins people's lives. In some cases it may better their life.

People use those drugs because our education system is horribly inefficient and counterlogical, maybe the biggest reason why society is being held back. I think it's more of a self-defense mechanism than a beneficial addition to life. ADD drugs wouldn't be a problem if the education system wasn't backwards.

[kommisar]

I could like drugs and argue that they're dumb as fuc to use

[Garquillex]

Yup, exactly what I meant. I should have mentioned I wasn't agreeing with there being nothing to have an opinion about in regards to drugs.

[blade_anime]

Originally Posted by Vendetta21

If I have a prescription because my family has good insurance and I am using it to study for a hard engineering exam, is it immoral to give it to my friend who does not have good insurance and is having an equally hard time completing the exam? Or do you really believe in making morality a thing that is wielded by your income class?

Did you read the part where I said that most prescription medication has its dosages and potency carefully measured from person to person? Did you think about possible allergies to the medicine? Or the fact that they could take it with alcohol? Even if YOU'VE done all the prequisite research, that doesn't mean that THEY have. They should know just as much about the risks and dangers as you do, especially when it could have a very different effect on them than it does on you.

[Vendetta21]

Originally Posted by blade_anime

Did you read the part where I said that most prescription medication has its dosages and potency carefully measured from person to person? Did you think about possible allergies to the medicine? Or the fact that they could take it with alcohol?

A doctor is not a failsafe to any of these problems.

People use those drugs because our education system is horribly inefficient and counterlogical, maybe the biggest reason why society is being held back. I think it's more of a self-defense mechanism than a beneficial addition to life. ADD drugs wouldn't be a problem if the education system wasn't backwards.

It might just be the biggest waste of time in the world to make real decisions (for instance, regarding ADD drugs) based on counter-factuals. Why are they a problem now?