Does A Senseless Man Dream?

[richhhhhard]

I posted a thread a few days ago about time and existence, but it was more a response to my thoughts on these questions-

What does a blind man see in his dreams?
Does he experience his dreamworld in total darkness?
What of a deaf man?
In his dream does he read lips?
Does a man that lacks all 5 senses dream at all?
Does he even perceive that he exists?

These are philosophical questions that have profound implications on what "life" is.
Helen Keller lacked 2 of the 5 senses, sight and hearing, but she was still able to feel, taste, and smell (just try to imagine the world without sight or sound, it is almost impossible[actually it is impossible, you can't imagine life without something that you already have]). With these abilities she was still able to gain an understanding of the world.

What if she had not had those senses either though?

From a religious standpoint would such a person, that could never be reached, be able to be saved? They could never sin because they could never act. On the other hand, they could never choose to believe in God because they could never experience the world. This person could live a full "life" if kept alive, but never experience anything.

From a philosophical standpoint would such a person even exist? Clearly they exist in the physical sense that they have a body, a beating heart, and a developed brain. But do they perceive that they exist, and that they are a part of the universe? Do they have any thoughts at all? Does anything, aside from anatomy, separate them from a plant?
Does anything make them more than an aggregation of biological building blocks?

[Izzy]

I don't know why they wouldn't exist... Even someone who has no senses can still think. Just because they don't think in forms that relate to things we perceive doesn't mean they don't at all. Think about someone who is deaf and doesn't know any written languages, but can see. Obviously they would be able to think and see that they exist. But how would they think to themselves. It wouldn't be in a language thats for sure. He would just use whatever he can to form some kind of connections to things he can see.

Also I remember in psychology that blind people have reported that they do dream. They just don't know how to describe in a way that relates to seeing.

[korny]

If there were a person born lacking all senses with full mental capacity I'm assuming. Someone lacking all senses would be the result of serious underdevolopement of the brain, through the period of conception until birth, unless such a person actually exists, regardless of whether that's even the point or not.

So another question could be imposed being; would a senseless person with full mental capacity, ever hope to achieve a way to tap into the use of their brain at all? How would such a person know anything about basic instinct or simple emotions even? I don't think it becomes a philosophical question at all when you observe the basic concepts that make people understand any part of their lives. Without senses their is no understanding of anything. We rely on our senses to understand the world around us. Without the sense of sight, sound, and touch alone, what understanding of anything could possibly be generated within a person. Emotions help dictate our thoughts and create our basic instincts, and ultimately shape and define our reality. For instance a person with no sense of touch, would have no fear of pain. In the end there would be no fear at all. Without our senses to define our reality, we would be nothing but a living body that breathes, eats, sleeps, and excretes would we not?

I guess what it would really come down to is knowing the true nature and science of our dreams and their relationship with our brain and body chemistry and so forth. I would think that one without senses, would have absolutely no perception of his own reality, but it's hard to say what the brain is truly capable of understanding without the senses to guide it. To answer your thoughts and questions I would say no. There would be no way of doing so.

[Izzy]

What percentage of the brain is actually taken up by areas that help us sense things? The rest of the brain is probably doing something other then sense our surroundings.

Also, has there been any recorded cases of people being born without the sense of touch without just being completely paralyzed?

[korny]

Even if our senses took up .001% of our brains capacity, what understanding of anything would our brains be able to deduce without a sense of anything? Without ever having a sense for anything, how would it not render your brain useless to any form of understanding is the fundamental question here.

[Izzy]

Because wouldn't the brain still create some form of thought even the only thing it can perceive is itself?

[korny]

Ok, but how would the brain have a perception of itself? You assume as if the brain has an ability to know what it is without any real way of knowing. That just doesn't make any sense because without any sense, you would have no guide for thought.

[Izzy]

Well since at this point it is all opinion that is what i am doing. I'm assuming the brain has some knowledge of itself even if at a subconscious level. If there is ever some kind of conclusive study on this and I am wrong I will change my mind.

[korny]

Well even if the brain miraculously knew it was a brain, then what? " Hey I'm a brain better cram it with knowledge err wait what?” Your brain knows it's a brain, but what does it really know? That without any sense ever to guide it, it was able to naturally know what it is AND utilize it's capabilities to retain and understand knowledge? The only thing your brain is naturally able to do is tell your body what to do. Nothing learned, nothing experienced, and that is the key difference.

[Izzy]

Well no, I don't think it would be able to obtain any kind of knowledge we find useful. But maybe since it is using absolutely no resources on senses it develops some way to think about what its doing subconsciously. So in essence since the subconscious and whatever is controlling the body is the only thing is has, that could maybe turn into it's only conscious thought. Clearly the person would be servery trapped in his own little world, but it would still be trying to maintain it's own survival by staying alive. In the same way single celled organisms and other small organisms try to stay alive. Seems like they acknowledge they exist in some way by just living.

Maybe a man with no senses would just die at birth because he cant acknowledge hes even there. I don't really know.

[Necros140606]

okay, let's begin saying that dreams are the fictional expletation of a desire not satisfied during the day.

lacking a sense probably keeps that person to use that sense in his/her dreams, too, but i'm not sure. the mind might make up for the desire of the lacking sense, in some way.

a senseless person is a paradox because the brain would not receive any data from the outside, not even from the inside of the body, causing death. if you want to magically make this person live, its encephalograph (is this word correkt?) would be completely flat.

[korny]

But that's just it. Just like the single celled organisms, all a senseless person would be doing is living until their bodies could operate no longer without any understanding of their life. It would ultimately make no difference whether their brains were fully developed or not.

[Izzy]

But dreams don't actually have anything to do with senses themselves. They are just memories of senses.

How do you actually remember a taste or a smell? You don't need whatever you are trying to remember present at the time to remember it. Once it's a memory it is only produced by something in the brain. I'd like to think the brain is capable of creating these connections of memory even without the senses. Maybe somehow the brain can produce the memory of the taste of a banana in the exact same way someone with taste can just by accident or coincidence.

[Necros140606]

Originally Posted by Izzy

Clearly the person would be servery trapped in his own little world, but it would still be trying to maintain it's own survival by staying alive. In the same way single celled organisms and other small organisms try to stay alive. Seems like they acknowledge they exist in some way by just living.

what the hell are you talking about

that's just chemistry. or maybe you're implying that when i put salt in water the Na+ and Cl- ions have a perception of their existance and decide to separate to gain a greater electron stability.

yea.

[Izzy]

Originally Posted by korny

But that's just it. Just like the single celled organisms, all a senseless person would be doing is living until their bodies could operate no longer without any understanding of their life. It would ultimately make no difference whether their brains were fully developed or not.

I don't really know what we are talking about anymore then.

Originally Posted by Necros140606

what the hell are you talking about

that's just chemistry. or maybe you're implying that when i put salt in water the Na+ and Cl- ions have a perception of their existance and decide to separate to gain a greater electron stability.

yea.

Well what really is thought then? Everything is just chemistry.

[Necros140606]

Originally Posted by Izzy

Well what really is thought then? Everything is just chemistry.

yes. life is a cycle of chemical reactions that collectively try to gain more stabilty.

[korny]

They're memories of experiences you could only have because of your senses. How is your brain going to create memories of something you can't and never could experience? It can't. That would be impossible.

[Necros140606]

yeah. mind is composed of few automations (breathing, heartbeat etc), and everything else is developed from the internalization of external inputs in regard of the previously received experience. no experience means no brain activity.

[Izzy]

Originally Posted by Necros140606

yes. life is a cycle of chemical reactions that collectively try to gain more stabilty.

I agree with that. which is why I think that the whole humans having souls thing is a bunch of bull, which is the reason I'm not religious and why I find religion to just be forced ignorance.

Well, I'm going to bed.

[richhhhhard]

Originally Posted by Necros140606

yes. life is a cycle of chemical reactions that collectively try to gain more stabilty.

Originally Posted by Izzy

Well what really is thought then? Everything is just chemistry.

Originally Posted by korny

How is your brain going to create memories of something you can't and never could experience? It can't. That would be impossible.

These were my thoughts exactly. If all we are is a body of organic compounds that without working senses is nothing more than a waste of space, then why do people have the notion that we are so special? I am not saying that life is meaningless, but nor does it really seem to have much of a meaning. We think and feel based off our bodies chemical reaction to external stimulus. But at the same time, it is kind of cool because we are a collection matter that seeks to understand itself.

People look at religion as providing meaning and beauty to a otherwise bleak existence, but I think in a lot of cases it works the other way around. Without life after death, this is our only time to "exist." If this is true, there is no excuse for killing someone. In a religious world that person continues to exist, in this world that person is gone. In a religious world you are rewarded for suffering in the next life, in this world you only have so much time so you should try not to suffer. In a religious world a higher power will help you in a time of need, in this world you learn to help yourself.
Also, if this world was sculpted I think it makes it seem less beautiful. That everything we see is just a chance combination of subatomic particles, that they combined in such a complex way, seems kind of beautiful to me. Also the fact that we are made of particles of matter that have always existed is comforting too, and that "dying" is just returning to a less complex state. Obviously we will not remain conscious in that state but I still like the thought that we are just a complex form of matter and that after we decompose the elements that form our body will disperse into countless of new combinations.

I am not saying that religion *IS* wrong, just that this is what seems most likely to me.