Faith

[cry4eternity]

This is NOT a religion thread; this is a thread about religious faith.

Originally Posted by http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

2. belief that is not based on proof:

Personally, when dealing with topics such as these I prefer to replace the word "proof" with "evidence," simply because somebody always pulls the "100% certainty" argument. For the purposes of this thread, let's not assert anything with 100% certainty. Proof, or evidence, in this case would be anything that elevates the status of a claim such that it is not immediately dismissible. Use your best judgement.

Belief in a claim that has no support is faith, regardless of your reasons. Belief in a claim that has evidentiary support can also be faith, but then it depends on your reasoning. If you believe this claim simply because of the authority of who tells you, or some other similar fallacy, then you also have some degree of faith, depending on the trustworthiness of your source. However, if you decide to do a little research and evaluate the evidence firsthand, then your belief is not faith-based. Also keep in mind that the basis of your belief has absolutely nothing to do with its validity. That being said, here's what I want to ask.

When is a faith-based belief in anything ever justified? Why do so many people feel that it is somehow innately "good" to have a faith-based belief? I see a faith based belief as simply "believing for the sake of believing." If this belief also happens to be correct, then it is simply a coincidence. The claim may have been made with the intent of figuring out the truth, but the belief is not. If at any point the belief does become supported by evidence, it is no longer faith by the definition above. I'm reminded of a quote attributed to Christopher Hitchens, "It's called faith because it's not knowledge." Based on the above definition, this seems to follow logically. To me, this "argument" is similar to beating a dead horse that everybody claims is still alive. I am legitimately trying to gain insight on why so many people still disagree with me.

I'm not interested in religious arguments here. If you think that the definition of faith I've used is different than true "religious faith," feel free to point it out. Tell me how the logic would change based on a different definition and also tell me if your conclusion is the same based on my definitions.

If you say religious faith is not without evidence, feel free to point it out, but that argument is outside the scope of this thread. If you want to contribute I would be interested to hear if your conclusion is the same based on the assumption that religious faith has a basis with no evidence.

[rushyrulz]

Faith is a delusion. I can have all the faith in the world that I'm gonna hit the big jackpot in vegas, but it doesn't hold any merit since faith # truth. You can have faith to some extent like if you're partnered with someone for a science project. You can have faith that they will do their part, but this is faith based on a strong belief that your partner wants to get a good grade so he's willing to do his part in the project if you do yours. Blind faith isn't justifiable however in my opinion.

[DossarLX ODI]

Going to rushy's point, faith is usually used to feel better about a situation and look at the positive outcomes rather than think about the worse outcomes. For example, faith that heaven exists can make you feel better because it goes away from the thoughts of living in a meaningless universe and also deviate from thoughts of death.

However, this poses obvious problems when the worst does happen. It's just that the fear of loss is very devastating, and faith tries to overcome that strong emotion.

[Zon Fire]

Faith to me is a mixture of personal truth of an individual
As well as wishful thinking. One would think there is purpose
Which further constitutes to how they "feel"
this feel good about fate energy is a collection of faith brought
by fate, bringing connections within inner spirit. Sorta like an
Furnace constantly burning for the sake of good will

[Izzi]

People want to be ignorantly happy rather than know the truth if it is painful. I don't agree with lying even if it will upset somebody to tell them the truth.

Who knows, maybe some people even have this as some kind of survival instinct embedded into their mind.

[iCeCuBEz v2]

ok I have a pretty convoluted perception of "faith" in general.... so if I sound like a dick head don't "ban me for flaming"

People in general take faith in anything..... for what they BELIEVE is to be true.... but books are books... the internet is the internet.... wikipedia is wikipedia...... all the books had some author that had some reputation for who knows what.

Religion is a pretty useful construct in the world today... if one believes that there is a higher power that is actually judging them for doing "right" or "wrong" things... then it gives them faith to do things that they think are "right" (under the eyes of the law or under the eyes of "god" who cares)

The bible that is published today is still written in Latin, and who the **** actually speaks Latin today except for the pope, pastors, and whoever else actually bothers to learn such an archaic language. And yes Latin IS important because the "romance" languages are all based off Latin, so it is important to learn to expand vocabulary I suppose. It is important for most kids to learn it to "do well" on the SAT, and get into a "better" school; sick bro!

I personally have faith in doing whatever the **** I want as long as I'm not violating my own "rights under the law," while also doing my assignments to get great grades in a college i love..... so then one day I can have a job where I make a sufficient amount of money to support myself at least... and "deal with paying taxes" later.

The only "true" laws that exist to me are the four "known" forces in the universe; strong force, weak force, and electro/magnetic force, oh and gravitation. I don't care about any of the "man made" ones as long as I know how to manipulate them to my advantage when that "time" comes.

No one has even conceptualized gravity it's just a "natural" law of the "universe"...... kinda hard to conceptualize that one.

peoples "opinions" about "stuff" is complete bullshit to me because no one REALLY knows.... that's why you go to college and LEARN.

[TheSaxRunner05]

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

You can have faith to some extent like if you're partnered with someone for a science project. You can have faith that they will do their part, but this is faith based on a strong belief that your partner wants to get a good grade so he's willing to do his part in the project if you do yours. Blind faith isn't justifiable however in my opinion.

This isn't faith, it's a deduction based of evidence derived from their past behavior. True faith isn't justifiable to me either.

[Reincarnate]

Any belief that isn't somehow ground in evidence is wholly arbitrary and has no bearing on whether something is actually true or false. Some people are OK with believing possible delusions if it means having a happier life. I don't see any problem with that unless they start forcing their views on others in some form.

Personally, I find the truth liberating. Knowing and understanding WHY there is no afterlife makes me realize how precious my time here is. I said it a long time ago already, but it's pretty amazing; the parts that compose your body have basically been floating around for billions of years, and only now, for this short sliver of time, have they come together to make YOU. It's a pretty damned long time to wait for such an opportunity, haha.

But for some people, that idea is scary. To those people, believing in an afterlife or a God or something faith-based is the only way to remain sane. That's fine.

I think faith-based beliefs are completely OK as long as you aren't doing yourself or others a disservice. Some lies are harmless. Others aren't.

[Cavernio]

eternity's definition of faith is what rushy used as faith. However, that said, eternity also said: "However, if you decide to do a little research and evaluate the evidence firsthand, then your belief is not faith-based", which, if taken as far as things can possibly go, means that belief the world exists outside our own minds is a part of faith.
I mean, most research people do doesn't involve collecting the data yourself, so you have to trust that whatever you see from somewhere else is accurate. More about this later.

[Reincarnate]

Originally Posted by Cavernio

eternity's definition of faith is what rushy used as faith. However, that said, eternity also said: "However, if you decide to do a little research and evaluate the evidence firsthand, then your belief is not faith-based", which, if taken as far as things can possibly go, means that belief the world exists outside our own minds is a part of faith.
I mean, most research people do doesn't involve collecting the data yourself, so you have to trust that whatever you see from somewhere else is accurate. More about this later.

No, the world outside your mind wouldn't be faith-based because it would require you to posit new constructs for the mind that have no evidence currently (and THAT would rely on faith). The evidence, which explains what our minds are and how they work, and how they are causally embedded in our world, is pretty undeniable proof that the "world exists outside your mind." Your mind is physically PART of the world. I mess with it, and your conscious experience adjusts accordingly.

To take the solipsistic view is pretty worthless because it's unfalsifiable. Generally speaking, unfalsifiable things are a waste of time. If you can't prove something true or false one way or the other, then it's best to just discard it and not worry too much about it.

In other words, I put it to you this way:

Is there a world outside your mind? Possibly not, but does it matter? Reality would appear the same either way.

Is there an alternate universe full of peanut-butter demons that we can't ever interact with or detect in any way, no matter what? Sure, but again, who cares? Whether or not it's true or false, the outcome looks identical to us. So why bother assuming it's true when it's wholly arbitrary and indistinguishable from non-existence? It renders the phrase "to exist" meaningless.

There is literally no logical way to answer that question without appealing to some kind of emotional argument. There's no reason to posit that something without evidence exists unless it boils down to some variant of "Because I want it to."

Read this -- The Dragon in my Garage, by Carl Sagan (one page worth of material): http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm

[devonin]

People exercise faith in all kinds of ways besides religious faith, so you're doing a bit of a disservice to discuss faith-based-belief by only referencing religious faith-based-belief.

Science is just as much faith based by the end user as religion is. The vast majority of people accept many things as scientific truth without they themselves having seen, or even being able to comprehend if shown, the evidence in support of it.

Obviously the key difference is that the scientist will say "If you expend the effort and have the intelligence, you too could completely understand this thing, and it would cease to be based on your faith in our correctness" where a religious figure will essentially boil things down to "The need for such proof is meaningless and unwarranted anyway" as a means to disguise the fact that they have no such proof, but the point still stands.

We have faith in all kinds of things that contain the proviso "But you could find out the proof if you really wanted" and never seem to question those thigns at all.

[Reincarnate]

We don't question things that are otherwise consistent.

There's a huge difference between accepting scientific fact and having faith in a religion, as I know you know.

I don't have to understand all the intricacies and equations of quantum theory to understand that quantum theory exists and is understood by many. Otherwise, we wouldn't have transistors, lasers, CDs, etc. I'm sure you've personally come into contact with all of these things. There is proof that this science is the real deal even if you don't personally understand it or have spent time in a lab using expensive equipment.

[iCeCuBEz v2]

I like Reincarnate's conception of "faith" (:

I don't even want to actually understand how "quantum theory" "exists" in the world that we live in... as people TODAY..... that's incredibly hard to actually prove along with every other scientific discipline that exists as "separate theories" its also difficult for an individual to understand that concept when sense is based on smell, taste, eye sight, and hearing, and "depth perception" so you can "see" in "3D" (three spacial dimensions)

so "life" under an "individual's" scope of perception is based on a tangible universe where you understand that your individual setting is based on that concept.... I don't need to "understand" quantum theory under the "theory of everything;" I know how most of that shit is applicable in the latest "technological advancements" that are developed and exposed to the general public. How individuals take it is up to them..... not my problem.

They say "Knowledge is power!" well yeah...... kind of..... it is the application of that process to develop a business, or whatever to use that knowledge as a tool of manipulation to get people to generally depend on that product... Cell phones??!?!?!?! it has gotten to the point where "everyone" "should" own one..... yeah Verizon has got that shit on lockdown.... (or whatever service provider you get for cell phones)

Yeah; everyone should have faith in "some kind of higher being that is judging them upon their actions".... Faith in what? based on their past and upbringing..... The only faith I personally have is living my own life and gaining a greater understanding of the importance of my own physical health to eventually live a "longer life".... and not obtain a virus... which is impossible to REALLY "cure"..... and not develop a tumor that will eventually become malignant and develop "cancerous" cells...... treatable..... completely curable? who ****in knows. It is difficult to really cure cancer when it is your own individual cells in your own body that are doing the dirty work.... I'd rather not get exposed to "chemo radiation".... don't even wanna know what exposure to waves of such insane frequencies actually affect the human body.

I'm tired of hearing the argument about whether evolution should be taught under "biology" as a discipline.... evolution has been proved and has held true..... evolution "exists"

[devonin]

Stop putting things in quotation marks that are neither quotations nor sarcastic. Also, at least somewhat staying on topic would be appreciated.

[iCeCuBEz v2]

that was a completely objective statement about my own personal belief about faith sry about that one..... bye bye critical thinking board don't know why i even bothered posting here all of a sudden

oh yea kind of difficult for you to understand my sense of reasoning with quotation marks and such.... kind of difficult to find the meaning of those quotation marks using the "interwebz" as a method of communication for higher level thinkers (whatever that means)

I'll just go back to stalking; I know better.

and ya dude viruses are pretty impossible to "get rid of completely" but there are treatments to maintain them as not harmful to the human body.... not off topic dude... for real.... ok I should've specified that sexually transmitted ones such as HIV and genital warts aren't curable sry about that one......

next time I post something I'll use a credible source of information..... that I discovered on the internet.... yeah that's a wonderful idea.... too bad I don't know the author and their reputation as that author. I said essentially the same thing "Mr.Rubix" did btw.... sry I used a different combination of words and paragraphs with bullshit quotations to convey the same ****ing idea he wrote on the internet. Ya continue to be internet judgmental yo..... THATS hilarious

[ShAiOnEi]

I didn't believe it myself I had the same objective thoughts about this topic. I used to always think I want to believe in it but in the back of my mind I thought this isn't logical. The funny thing is nothing was ever going right in my life for 2 years after I was discharged from the airforce. I lost jobs moved from place to place struggling with a place to live.

When my son was born we had been staying at my wife's father's house, the day after he was born I wasn't allowed to live there so the only place left for me was florida. Still I kept getting and losing jobs nothing was working for me it was like I felt empty all the time no motivation, no drive just nothing.

My last job that I lost I told my boss how I felt and he invited me to church and kept writing me sending me gifts 2 months later I decided to go. The first day I went I felt an overwhelming sense of hope/faith. I was welcomed by everyone there alot of people knew I was coming since I let my boss know but it was great they saw a new face and they were glad I had came. A few weeks later I landed a good job in downtown Disney a huge weight seemed to lift off of my shoulders I didn't feel as empty it was like a candle was lit inside me. Now if you want to think of these things as pure luck or coincidence that's ok I'm not here to persuade just to enlighten from my experience.

What I am trying to say is hopefully keeping on topic is that faith may be hard to understand right now in your life I know the answers aren't always clear and you reach out for logical understanding but it's not easy it doesn't just come to you. You have to pursue it reach out and ask god there is no other way that I have tried. Christian faith is a relationship in you and god no one else can or should get in between that relationship it is only you who truly influences that. I don't mean to offend anyone by my comments but I felt like I had to say something.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by iCeCuBEz v2

that was a completely objective statement about my own personal belief about faith sry about that one..... bye bye critical thinking board don't know why i even bothered posting here all of a sudden

oh yea kind of difficult for you to understand my sense of reasoning with quotation marks and such.... kind of difficult to find the meaning of those quotation marks using the "interwebz" as a method of communication for higher level thinkers (whatever that means)

I'll just go back to stalking; I know better.

and ya dude viruses are pretty impossible to "get rid of completely" but there are treatments to maintain them as not harmful to the human body.... not off topic dude... for real.... ok I should've specified that sexually transmitted ones such as HIV and genital warts aren't curable sry about that one......

next time I post something I'll use a credible source of information..... that I discovered on the internet.... yeah that's a wonderful idea.... too bad I don't know the author and their reputation as that author. I said essentially the same thing "Mr.Rubix" did btw.... sry I used a different combination of words and paragraphs with bullshit quotations to convey the same ****ing idea he wrote on the internet. Ya continue to be internet judgmental yo..... THATS hilarious

Nothing in that rambling pile of nonsense had anything to do with the thread either. What to STIs have to do with a discussion about religious faith? You put "random words" in "quotation marks" for as near as I "can tell" absolutely "no reason" at all.

[iCeCuBEz v2]

haha 'religious faith' thats a good one

[rushyrulz]

Quit posting in CT if you're going to make posts like that icecubez. I actually got IMed by cry4eternity asking if I knew what the hell you were talking about in either of your posts and I responded with a resounding, "Hell no."

[iCeCuBEz v2]

ok done posting in CT thread on FFR... got it.... cool..... super cool story br0