truth about critical thinking?

[perkeyone]

I realized today that a lot of what i read here in CT is either the near exact opposite of my opinion or a near perfect match. I rarely find an opinion that makes me think about things in a new way. I normally find familiar points, followed by the obvious counter-points. A few illogical statements are thrown into the mix and they are usually shot down pretty nicely. Finally, after everyone gets a chance to point out the obvious flaws in the other persons thinking, the thread cools down and is forgotten. After thinking about this pattern, I began to think that CT posts are really the ffr community's way of satisfying our own personal need to have some one agree with the way you think and the need to argue with someone. In fact I'm only posting this to see if anyone else noticed this trend and to have a casual argument with anyone who thinks that it's bunk.

[Relambrien]

"Critical Thinking" is FFR's way of saying "Debate Forum." You'll notice that coberst, though his points demonstrate deep thought, leave absolutely no room for discussion and debate, and therefore do not belong in this forum.

[devonin]

I've long been of the opinion that society as a whole as far too complacent. In the era of political correctness, and enforced acceptance of damn near everything, its getting so that people actually think the phrase "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion" is true.

Everyone is most certainly not entitled to their opinion. They are entitled to an -educated- opinion.

I've always held that the true path to knowledge lies in -constantly- challenging your own beliefs. I've met people who say that they actually don't care if something they believe is actually false. I could never live that way.

While a lot of people post things either that the common population already knows and accepts (which leads to poor discussions) or something so ridiculous and full of holes (which leads to shooting down then thread death) there are a reasonable number of threads asking really useful and cogent questions, from which develop really solid discussions.

[perkeyone]

Ive also noticed the odd behavior that he exhibits, but I'd rather keep the discussion on why people post in CT.

Originally Posted by devonin

I've long been of the opinion that society as a whole as far too complacent. In the era of political correctness, and enforced acceptance of damn near everything, its getting so that people actually think the phrase "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion" is true.

Everyone is most certainly not entitled to their opinion. They are entitled to an -educated- opinion.

Political correctness is a joke.
There will never be a universally acceptable way to say things like
"you are an idiot" or "shut up"
nor will there be for any phrase.
even "hello" may be offensive to some.
you cant classify people either.
people are desperate for individuality that they already have.
the vast majority of words and phrases have a connotation attached to them which causes people to misconstrue, misinterpret, misunderstand, and take offense to statement that were genuinely not intended to be malicious.
An opinion should definitely be educated.
People who criticize don't usually fully comprehend the entire situation.

[/quote]I've always held that the true path to knowledge lies in -constantly- challenging your own beliefs. I've met people who say that they actually don't care if something they believe is actually false. I could never live that way.[/quote]

I know exactly what you mean.
I really like the whole premise behind empirical knowledge.

Originally Posted by devonin

While a lot of people post things either that the common population already knows and accepts (which leads to poor discussions) or something so ridiculous and full of holes (which leads to shooting down then thread death) there are a reasonable number of threads asking really useful and cogent questions, from which develop really solid discussions.

I have to disagree here.
I find that the majority of topics are cliche'ed, even generic.
They seem to be more of a reaffirmation of an individuals beliefs.
As if the starter just wanted to see how many people share the same opinion.
And they usually at some point have some one being called an idiot or the like.
I'm fairly certain it will happen in this thread too...
although I doubt I would ever be unable to hold my toungue. (fingers)

[Dark Ronin]

Originally Posted by perkeyone

I have to disagree here.
I find that the majority of topics are cliche'ed, even generic.
They seem to be more of a reaffirmation of an individuals beliefs.
As if the starter just wanted to see how many people share the same opinion.
And they usually at some point have some one being called an idiot or the like.
I'm fairly certain it will happen in this thread too...
although I doubt I would ever be unable to hold my toungue. (fingers)

I have always enjoyed this forum, and I agree with devonin completely. It seems like your basing your entire knolwedge of CT on one thread. If you are right then please enlighten us. I'm all for a "real" CT thread, and who better to start one than you?

Originally Posted by perkeyone

I realized today that a lot of what i read here in CT is either the near exact opposite of my opinion or a near perfect match. I rarely find an opinion that makes me think about things in a new way. I normally find familiar points, followed by the obvious counter-points. A few illogical statements are thrown into the mix and they are usually shot down pretty nicely. Finally, after everyone gets a chance to point out the obvious flaws in the other persons thinking, the thread cools down and is forgotten. After thinking about this pattern, I began to think that CT posts are really the ffr community's way of satisfying our own personal need to have some one agree with the way you think and the need to argue with someone. In fact I'm only posting this to see if anyone else noticed this trend and to have a casual argument with anyone who thinks that it's bunk.

Is that not the point of a debate in the first place? Everyone gets a say in it. Eventually someone will come up with an answer that no one can disprove. That’s the fun of it all; you get to defend your claim to the very end. After awhile you perfect your point and people can’t find anymore flaws in it. That’s when it dies; once everyone agrees that someone has stated the best possible answer. It’s not about you being right or always knowing everything. It’s about exploring what you think you know, doing research and backing up your claims. I honestly don’t care if I'm proven wrong, as long as I find the truth.

But is this not more of a chitchat/discussion kind of thread? Its all about CT, but it just doesnt strike me as all that CTish.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by Perkyone

I have to disagree here.
I find that the majority of topics are cliche'ed, even generic.

How is this disagreeing? I said "While many topics are A or B, there are a few that are C" So saying "The majority are A or B" is actually just exactly what I said...

Originally Posted by Dark Ronin

I honestly don’t care if I'm proven wrong, as long as I find the truth.

That's, to me, the defining quality between someone who posts in CT to try and look smart (Coberst) and someone who posts in CT because they have a vested interest in debate for the sake of refining knowledge.

[chunky_cheese]

Originally Posted by perkeyone

In fact I'm only posting this to see if anyone else noticed this trend and to have a casual argument with anyone who thinks that it's bunk.

It sounds like you read a thread you didn't like, and you noticed yourself transform into a troll.

I like to debate, I like to explore an issue, and learn from it. Though I pick my subjects wisely, I'll never post in a vague religion thread, or the big bang thread, because there is NOTHING to learn from them, only different theories. Why dwell on the impossible when you can master the possible, and move on from there?

I'd rather learn 1 fact than a thousand theories.

[devonin]

But if the "discussion" going on simply has stated and provably so facts, how is it even a discussion?

[chunky_cheese]

Because a discussion should start with facts, explore the issue, then move onto ideas. In my opinion anyways...

[MixMasterLar]

I've always held that the true path to knowledge lies in -constantly- challenging your own beliefs. I've met people who say that they actually don't care if something they believe is actually false. I could never live that way.

That is the only statment you said that I think I agree with 100%

back on topic:

I realized today that a lot of what i read here in CT is either the near exact opposite of my opinion or a near perfect match

Well truth be told there arnt that many thoeries about a subject (other then God vs Big Bang, and even that can be summed up to "God vs Big Bang"). Yes I agree that alot of the threads here have gotten pointless....you'd notice I did stop posting here.

[XCraigeX]

Well i actually agree - but i don't think anything is wrong with us wanting to argue with other intelligent users around the world. I mean, how often do you get the chance to argue about "homosexuality" with someone thousands of miles away?

FFR FORUMS FTW XD

[atalkingcow]

Originally Posted by XCraigeX

Well i actually agree - but i don't think anything is wrong with us wanting to argue with other intelligent users around the world. I mean, how often do you get the chance to argue about "homosexuality" with someone thousands of miles away?

FFR FORUMS FTW XD

o.O
Maybe I'm not thousands of miles away.....
Maybe I'm....

RIGHT BEHIND YOU!!!
*Screams really loud and scary*


Anywho..... Yeah, I agree that with the OP, to a point.
There are some people, like that Coberst guy, who use the CT forums as a place to post ginormous essays about topics that nobody can understand.

However, there are others who ask questions, get answers, and learn something. I don't even play FFR anymore, I just show up to read the CT posts. ^_^

[perkeyone]

Originally Posted by Dark Ronin

I have always enjoyed this forum, and I agree with devonin completely. It seems like your basing your entire knolwedge of CT on one thread. If you are right then please enlighten us. I'm all for a "real" CT thread, and who better to start one than you?.

I enjoy ffr's CT too... some of the smartest people ive ever talked to are in here.
But I feel like over the past 2 years ive seen the same topics revived and killed more times than i care to count.

Originally Posted by Dark Ronin

Is that not the point of a debate in the first place? Everyone gets a say in it. Eventually someone will come up with an answer that no one can disprove. That’s the fun of it all; you get to defend your claim to the very end. After awhile you perfect your point and people can’t find anymore flaws in it. That’s when it dies; once everyone agrees that someone has stated the best possible answer. It’s not about you being right or always knowing everything. It’s about exploring what you think you know, doing research and backing up your claims. I honestly don’t care if I'm proven wrong, as long as I find the truth..

Yeah debate is fun and all but ffr's CT threads seem to all end with the same way.
Everyone realizes that...
the truth can not be determined,
faith is not fact,
correlation is not causation, (including stereotyping)
and some guy is an idiot.

Originally Posted by Dark Ronin

But is this not more of a chitchat/discussion kind of thread? Its all about CT, but it just doesnt strike me as all that CTish.

mabey

Originally Posted by devonin

How is this disagreeing? I said "While many topics are A or B, there are a few that are C" So saying "The majority are A or B" is actually just exactly what I said..

Oh man… I’m sorry I misunderstood some how.
I thought for some reason you were saying…
SOME are A or B, but MOST are C.
I think I have dyslexia sometimes lol.

[Verruckter]

CR is a great place to get attention: You post your opinion and people respond... :P

[devonin]

I'm generally loathe to move a discussion -about- CT out of CT, but this really hasn't actually been a very in-depth debate or anything. We've basically established that a lot of people post things here so everyone will agree with them, and that a lot of people post things here so that they can get everyone all riled up, and some people post solid good debatable and dicussable topics in here, which we all love...

We also seem to be generally in agreement that the third kind of topic, the really solid CT-material topics, are valuable because they encourage us to expand our mindset, and consider alternate views. All of this seems pretty implicit in the concept of Critical Thinking generally, so I actually just don't think this thread needs to even remain open.