A question about gays/lesbians

[ckj846]

STOP. Before you come in here with the mindset of flaming me/gays or lesbians in general, please do not even think about posting in here. This is a question (or more like a theory) as to how gay/lesbians are still here on the planet. There will be no flaming at all, just debating on what you think. Now that that is over... here is my question.

In science, we learned in depth more about natural selection. I really was thinking, why are gays/lesbians still on the planet? If it is ideal to be "straight" in order to have children and pass on your traits, wouldn't the "gay" genes eventually be elimiated? I understand that the gene might be recessive (thus having a 25% chance of appearing in offspring) but you would think that EVENTUALLY all gays/lesbians would cease to exist. This really does bring up the question, what decides whether you are gay or straight? Is it a genetic mutation or some error while you are still in the womb? Please discuss.

Mods, if things DO get out of hand (and I hope they don't) feel free to lock this topic or move it if this isn't CT material.
O_o

EDIT: Reading it over again, it really does sound like I hate gays/lesbians, and the truth is, I don't. As long as they don't start hitting on me, I'm cool with them. I do have a few gay friends and I have asked them about this and they didn't know. Sorry about that if you are gay and I sound like one of those super religious gay bashers. My apologies.

[talisman]

There's probably more than one gene involved in determining sexuality. As to your main question, I don't know. I had a book called "Biological Exuberance" by a guy named Bruce Bagemihl that I think offered one explanation, but I can't remember quite how it worked.

[Afrobean]

I would say that being gay is more based on your upbringing than on your genes.

[ckj846]

Well it is pretty much proven it is a genetic mutation in this book. Sorry I couldn't get the actual official site.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006...lance&n=283155
I think that the enviroment that one grows up in has an influence to an extent, but I don't think that it is the major part in determining one's sexuality.
O_o

[BluE_MeaniE]

It's generally accepted that you're born with it. So like everything, it's most likely a mix of genes and environment. A mutation is possible. But it's pretty common.

But in any case, there is a distinct fact of the matter on the truth.

[Chrissi]

It's hard to see the forest for the politically correct trees.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by ckj846

Well it is pretty much proven it is a genetic mutation in this book. Sorry I couldn't get the actual official site.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006...lance&n=283155

Nice try. However, you could have at least given me a BS link that supported what you said, but instead linked me to a buying a book page (which actually gives no indication of what you said being true-- and if the book does prove such a gay gene to exist, it would obviously be identified in the synopsis).

Until I hear from a reliable source that genes cause homosexuality, I'll stick to what I said before. Your argument is the equivalent to saying that genes decides what kind of food you'll like or what kind of music you'll like. There might be things in your genes that affect it, but the end result of your taste in whatever subject comes from your environment.

[jwcgator]

I remember something about being that the Y Chromosome being smaller than the X, it sorta gets "beat up" by the X chromosome, or something to that effect. Eh, I dunno i saw something about it on the discovery channel, dont quite remember it all.

[talisman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic...al_orientation

for afro.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by talisman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic...al_orientation

for afro.

Originally Posted by that wiki article

An increasing number of studies have investigated this link, but no scientific consensus exists as to the specific biological factors that may play a role, nor to the precise nature of their influence on sexual orientation.

oh.

[DarkVampiress21]

I don't think anything makes you gay/straight. Well, maybe your environment.

But it's just whatever turns you on..

I suppose it's like asking, "What determines whether you like Rock or Techno?"

[ckj846]

Sorry afro. I was thinking of the book I read about the Genome and I was kinda rushing for a source. Totally didn't think of wiki. Well none of you guys really answered my intended question, why are do gays/lesbians exist. Doesn't this go against the idea of natural selection?
O_o

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Wiki

Male homosexuality appears likely to be influenced by a complex genetic interaction which may be mediated by H-Y antigens in the mother’s immune system (see "fraternal birth order"). Whichever genes are implicated they almost certainly cause male brains to differentiate in a female typical direction. As for female homosexuality, there remains little evidence from replicated genetic linkage studies.

oh. Afro, don't go yelling at me please for not having a reliable source when you don't even read the whole article that talisman provided...

[Z3ratul]

Heh, well, there's a few takes on this.

First off, it highly depends on your view of a few things:

Do you believe your sexuality is a free choice? IE... I consider myself to be straight. I could go eff some dude in the ass right now. Does that make me gay? Was I ever gay? What if I choose to never have sex... does that make me gay or simply anti-procreation? Or just a weirdo? Or is it a matter of your DNA that determines your sexuality?

Regardless of that... the current trend of this topic is to believe it's genetic, so I'll go with that. It brings up some interesting thoughts... perhaps humans don't have that instinctual behavior to continue the species. Perhaps there's too many of us and this is mother nature's way of of controlling our population. Maybe it's a fluke. I honestly don't know, but it's certainly something I've thought a lot about, but I've yet to reach any conclusions.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by ckj846

Sorry afro. I was thinking of the book I read about the Genome and I was kinda rushing for a source. Totally didn't think of wiki. Well none of you guys really answered my intended question, why are do gays/lesbians exist. Doesn't this go against the idea of natural selection?
O_o

Not really. Homosexuals aren't made in the way you're talking. Homosexuality isn't passed from generation to generation. I am certain that preferences are not passed down from generation to generation in ANY form, so why would sexual preferences?

oh. Afro, don't go yelling at me please for not having a reliable source when you don't even read the whole article that talisman provided...

I never yelled. And why should I read the whole thing when the first few sentences basically say "people study links but it hasn't been scientifically proven." What good is anything that's not scientifically proven?

Really, they're just looking at correlations anyway. correlation!=causation;

[DarkVampiress21]

Maybe they just want to be different/get attention. I know that's true by some of the people I know >_<

But if they're truly gay/lesbian, well I suppose they found someone who makes them happy but they're of the same sex. To them it doesn't matter, because they truly love that person and decide that they are gay/lesbian.

And does it matter if it goes against natural selection? They aren't thinking, "Oh man, I love him, but oh darn! It goes against natural selection! I'm going to impact the human race out of 6 billion people!"

Although, if the whole world becomes gay/lesbian, then that would definately be a problem. I seriously doubt that would happen though.

[JKPolk]

There's enough people on the planet that we could use some more gays/lesbians/people just plain not reproducing.

[ckj846]

I agree with you afro. Iw as thinking of homosexuality as a trait but it really isn't. I guess this thread brings in the idea of what it is to really be homosexual. I think that someone who is homosexual is basically a person who prefers someone of the same sex over someone of the opposite sex. It really just confuses me though because if homosexuality isn't passed from generation to generation, are you saying its a random mishap? It seems as though it is more of a hormonal imbalance during pregnancy.

Originally Posted by wiki

A 1993 U.S. study found a correlation between male homosexuality and maternal lineage, suggesting that mothers have some special role in determining the sexual orientation of their male offspring. Studies since the 1960s (eg Slater, 1962) have noted that homosexual men tend to be the later-born among a group of siblings. Many recent studies (see Fraternal birth order) have indicated that homosexual men are more likely to have older brothers than the general male population. (This difference is not observed among women.)

A chemical called the histocompatibility Y-antigen (the "HY antigen") is found on the surface of the cells of male mammals. It is hypothesized (Wachtel, 1983; Blanchard & Bogaert, 1996) that the "fraternal birth order effect" may be related to increasing levels of antibodies produced by the mother in response to the presence of this chemical during pregnancy with the oldest son. These antibodies could then somehow trigger different brain development patterns in later male children, either in the uterus or in early childhood through breast milk. Later sons would then more likely to have a homosexual orientation as adults. At least one genetic study attempting to verify this theory claimed to find a correlation with a certain area of the X chromosome (of which all women carry two copies, and all men carry one), but these findings could not be replicated by other researchers.

An alternate theory was proposed by Italian researchers in 2004 (Camperio-Ciani et al. 2004), supported by a study of about 4,600 people who were the relatives of 98 homosexual and 100 heterosexual men. Female relatives of the homosexual men tended to have more offspring than those of the heterosexual men. Female relatives of the homosexual men on their mother's side tended to have more offspring than those on the father's side. The researchers concluded that there was genetic material being passed down on the X chromosome which both promotes fertility in the mother and homosexuality in her male offspring. The connections discovered, however, would explain only 20% of the cases studied, indicating that this might not be the sole genetic factor determining sexual orientation.

Wouldn't this maybe be a genetic mutation on the mother's behalf? Also:

Originally Posted by wiki

Homosexuality has also been correlated with elevated testosterone levels in adult males, which may indicate an indirect genetic influence.

Interesting stuff here. =D
O_o

EDIT:

Originally Posted by DarkVampiress21

Maybe they just want to be different/get attention. I know that's true by some of the people I know >_<

But if they're truly gay/lesbian, well I suppose they found someone who makes them happy but they're of the same sex. To them it doesn't matter, because they truly love that person and decide that they are gay/lesbian.

And does it matter if it goes against natural selection? They aren't thinking, "Oh man, I love him, but oh darn! It goes against natural selection! I'm going to impact the human race out of 6 billion people!"

Although, if the whole world becomes gay/lesbian, then that would definately be a problem. I seriously doubt that would happen though.

Well the thing was, I was asking why they gays still existed if they didn't care about natural selection and they did not reproduce. Of course this lowered the population for future generations, but then if this WAS a genetic mutation (which I'm still not sure on) then why are there still homosexual people here? That was my real question.

Sorry for this extremely long post =/

[Afrobean]

Trying to find the roots of homosexuality is like trying to find the roots of S&M or pedophilia.

It's all environment, guys.

EDIT: By the way, notice how they use the word correlate. That's a fancy word meaning that as one goes up, the other changes. This however does not necessarily mean that one caused the other.

[Z3ratul]

However, from a sexual standpoint, it seems that homoesexuality would be the way to go. Your partner is more likely to be looking for the same relationship (sexually) as you are. For males, assuming buttsex and giving head doesn't bother you (it does me), it would seem to be a pretty sweet deal.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Afrobean

Trying to find the roots of homosexuality is like trying to find the roots of S&M or pedophilia.

It's all environment, guys.

Very good point.

[jewpinthethird]

Natural Selection means survival of the fittest. As you should well be aware, the human species is at the top of the food chain. Homosexuals are still members of the human species.

Homosexuality is not a trait that can be passed on from generation to generation. It's a genetic mutation, a mixed up combination of X and Y chromosomes, individual to each person. Just because someone is homosexual doesnt mean the are any less fit for survival than heterosexuals.