Racial Segregation has begun in Canada

[fido123]

Originally Posted by Toronto Sun

Toronto District School Board trustees approved creating the province's first publicly funded Africentric school last night but not by much.

Racism hasn't been a major problem for many years in North America (excluding certain regions of America) but now it is beginning here in Southern Ontario. The school board wants to make a school for Black people only. This was implemented because too many black kids were dropping out. Apparently if we teach them about Black Culture they'll be more interested in school and therefore stay in it. I doubt somebody who idolized "the thug life" really cares about Black History. We are pretty much reversing what we called progress 50 years ago and may lead to eventual complete segregation which we know fails society as a whole. This is obviously foreshadowing many more schools like this. Also think of the school rivalries turning into hate crimes.

If an all white school was made there would be a huge uproar all because in all honesty many white people are too afraid to look at somebody and openly acknowledge that their skin is black or any other colour without the fear of being called a racist. This is where people have completely twisted the definition of racism. Racism is when you judge somebody based on their race, now it means seeing colour as we should now all apparently be colour blind. We all make internal impressions about somebody of a different race based on stereotypes, every one of us, but we just really need to suppress those feelings and not judge the person. Minorities are being given more power than the majority of people and it's really tearing me up inside. Who cares if we have different skin colours...it's just a damn colour deal with it.


TLDR: All black school in Toronto creating a cultural divide

[devonin]

I think you're drawing the precisely backwards conclusion from this than perhaps you ought to.

In Ontario we have publically funded catholic schools too. Taking religion courses is (basically) mandatory, there's in-school mass etc etc. This in no way segregates catholics from the rest of Canada. Non-catholics can go there, catholics can go elsewhere.

If they are going to make a school in Toronto that emphasizes black history, black cultural and religious traditions, and -ONLY- black people are allowed to attend, and they -AREN'T- allowed to attend elsewhere, then you can claim segregation problems.

If non-blacks can go there, and blacks can go elsewhere, then all they've done is see a sizable cultural community facing an educational crisis and tried to find a way to help amiolerate the issue.

I would have no problem with areas that have a large jewish population getting a government funded jewish school, ditto muslims, hindus or any other religious group. I'd be just as okay with the same being done for areas with non-white racial majorities.

Ontario being willing to give guarenteed publically funded education to everyone regardless of race, colour, creed etc is a great thing. That they are also willing to do so in a way that respects those races, colours and creeds as well seems like a good thing to me, not a bad thing.

[fido123]

I guess segregate isn't the correct word but the schools would enhance the current racial gap. I can agree with your point on Catholic schools and in my opinion they shouldn't really exist. Religion should take place in the homes, not the schools but I can understand an optional religion class. This is what I think they should do with the black school as well. Why don't they just make Black History classes?

[devonin]

Well here's the thing. If it is the case that a large number of black students in the Toronto area are dropping out, and it is the case that making a school geared towards but not exclusive to blacks would make more of them stay in school, is the possible later consequence of increased seperation of races so terrible that we shouldn't try to get these kids back in school and educated?

[fido123]

Originally Posted by devonin

Well here's the thing. If it is the case that a large number of black students in the Toronto area are dropping out, and it is the case that making a school geared towards but not exclusive to blacks would make more of them stay in school, is the possible later consequence of increased seperation of races so terrible that we shouldn't try to get these kids back in school and educated?

Instead of looking at this from a racial standpoint why don't they look at it as kids are dropping out and they need to have interesting programs at school to make them go. I doubt a drop out cares about history so why should the attraction factor be black history? If black students are going to go there it's not going to be because of their education but to be with their own race IMO. Why not make a school or a program in school to assist drop outs and spark a love for learning rather than just aim it at black people?

[devonin]

Why not make a school or a program in school to assist drop outs and spark a love for learning rather than just aim it at black people?

If your problem is that people refuse to eat oranges, you can either provide apples or try to find some way to convince them that oranges are what they want.

[MagicCarpetRide]

Originally Posted by fido123

. Why not make a school or a program in school to assist drop outs and spark a love for learning rather than just aim it at black people?

Whether they say it's aimed at black people or not.....It's still aimed at black people.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by MagicCarpetRide

Whether they say it's aimed at black people or not.....It's still aimed at black people.

People need to understand that things can have to do with race without being racist. The defining quality of racist thought is that the seperating out of one race from another is done because it is felt that one is better or worse than the other. This is a problem a lot of people have with gender issues too. Equal doesn't mean Identical, and you can address the ways in which things are different without including a value judgement that ones differences make them superior.

Opening up a school in a chinese neighbourhood with chinese teachers and classes taught in mandarin isn't racist. Pointing out that a majority of highschool dropouts in Toronto are black isn't racist. Concluding therefore that blacks are stupid? Racist. If they were opening up some remedial school and forcing black dropouts to attend it on the reasoning that they dropped out because they weren't smart enough to deal with normal highschool, then yes this would be a very racist program, and frankly it would never in a million years have come to pass.

It seems to me that all they are doing is saying "Such a large number of blacks are dropping out compared to other groups that we can only conclude that something about the way this system is working isn't working for them, perhaps if we change the system to bring it more into line with what they are looking for, they will be more inclined to stay in school and graduate."

Still not seeing a) racism b) segregation or c) a bad idea in any of this.

[MalReynolds]

I would think that the bad idea comes from those that misconstrue the standpoint. Using the people in this thread who call wolf without really thinking as an example, I would say this is where the harm comes in.

[devonin]

I'm not sure if we should avoid useful and beneficial legislation simply because some people might misconstrue the intention of it. If they want to question it, they can do so, and get probably the same explanation I've given here. If that still doesn't change their mind, then bully for them, but I think viewing this as a bad thing is misunderstanding both the concept and the intent of the concept.

[MalReynolds]

Well, yeah. But what happens when you put a bag over a dog's head for its own benefit? It may not understand what is going on, but it'll freak out. Might even bite you. I'm not saying that this will result in violence, but I am saying that both black and white people may not understand the principal behind the idea in the least and lash out.

[fido123]

I know this is all done with good intentions but why associate it with a race. Why not just drop outs of all races? If it just so happened there were more white than black drop outs so they made a school to focus on white history and other white only matters, I would bet everybody and especially the black community would be outraged.

[devonin]

If it just so happened there were more white than black drop outs so they made a school to focus on white history and other white only matters, I would bet everybody and especially the black community would be outraged.

Don't bunch racism against the majority in with what's going on here though. Whites just happen to have the more recent major connection with racism, slavery and what have you (Make no mistakes, black africans had east indian slaves well before white europeans showed up but that's neither here nor there)

"Visible Minorities" seem to have a genetic compulsion to resist anything that is for the people who historically oppressed them, even when that minority is not actually a minority of a given population. You could have a district with 5000 white students and 40000 black students, and if a school were made aimed towards blacks, blacks would be prone to get upset claiming segregation, and if a school were made aimed towards whites, blacks would be prone to get upset claiming racism, even though whites are in that case the numerical minority.

It's one of the lasting effects of racist policy, that even when the policy changes, it is held against you for (in many cases) far too long. At my university, there was an "African Students Union" as a ratified university club. Going by the name and charter, I couldn't actually determine that the club -did- anything, and one time they had booked a meeting room directly before we were using the same room, it looked as though they were just hanging out and talking.

And yet, you're correct in that if someone tried to form the "Anglo-saxon student union" they would probably get a -lot- of trouble from minority groups in the area. We've often joked at the poor reception a white man's pride parade would get, but it does speak to a much larger issue.

As regards this particular case, I'm going to quote you from a National Post article on the subject:

"I don't know if an Afrocentric school is the answer," said Sheila Ward, who represents Toronto Centre-Rosedale, but added that the proposal "is not about segregation or integration, it's about student success," before raising her hand in support.

Afterward, a crush of reporters gathered around Angela Wilson and Donna Harrow, the two women who pushed for the school as a way to help underachieving black youth succeed. Their weary but triumphant faces said it all.

"We're ecstatic," said Ms. Wilson, standing beside her co-organizer, Ms. Harrow. "We've got so many other things planned. This is not just it."

And given that both Ms Wilson and Ms Harrow are black, it certainly seems that advocates in the black community are in favour of the idea.

[Tokzic]

This is even more pointless than Catholic schools.

Honestly. A few black students who drop out say they wouldn't have if they had a black-geared school? Better bust out several million tax dollars building schools and hiring teachers to teach the exact same subjects and maybe black history just to satiate these idiots' parents. Besides black history, they aren't even learning anything different than people who go to public schools. Isn't learning the entire point of going to school? Thinking that the dropouts would have done differently with a school like this is laughable.

This is just people brandishing their minority swords and whining for something worthless just because they know that the government will say yes. The government needs to learn when to say, "Just because you're a minority doesn't mean we're going to give you things don't need."

[devonin]

This is even more pointless than Catholic schools.

There was a perfectly valid and important reason for the catholic district school boards in ontario when they were created. I agree (Despite going through the catholic system myself) that there isn't much of a need for them now, but it isn't quite the same thing.

[tea_green]

I went to a predominatly black school and the tempation was much greater to drop out. Then the next year I went to a predominatly white school and felt much more motivated. The teachers actually cared about whether or not I graduated. Atmosphere does make a difference but the determining factor lies within the person. I'm tired of people in the african american community using their race as an excuse for their shortcomings. No matter what you do, it will never be enough. Nothing will be equal enough for those who rely on rasicm to make their lives better.

[knuckles2224]

Well, if they choose to go to that school then its their decision isn't it.

[Reach]

I see several problems with this.

So what about the standard of education that is not influenced by culture, race or religion? Equality anyone? This isn't a private school. What exactly is going on here? They're going to teach kids about their cultural identity and they're going to start doing better? Yea right. When will the excuses end? This is such a multi factor problem, and trying to patch it with a premature idea like this will not work.

What exactly is this cultural identity anyway? I can guarantee you the groups of black people considered for this school are broken up into at least a dozen different cultural and ethnic backgrounds. This stereotyping of Africans and sticking them into a special school to get them to graduate seems like the last thing we need.

They're taking the public's money and shoving it up the ass of a special interest minority group. No. One of the problems with our education system is that it literally sucks: classes are too big, there is not enough help and attention for people that aren't doing well.

However, many problems are directly rooted in the communities and parents of the people that are going to the school, not necessarily the school itself, and then the kids fall behind and resent their education. I fail to see how this will remedy any of that. I went to school where one of the oldest black communities in North America is funneled into. All of these kids were in African study classes, and these were the same kids that were still never going to class and failing all of their tests.

Also, the idea that it's open to all ethnicities seems like a PC joke to me.

[MixMasterLar]

Originally Posted by devonin

I'm not sure if we should avoid useful and beneficial legislation simply because some people might misconstrue the intention of it. If they want to question it, they can do so, and get probably the same explanation I've given here. If that still doesn't change their mind, then bully for them, but I think viewing this as a bad thing is misunderstanding both the concept and the intent of the concept.

The proplem is when more then just a few think that. If there's one thing that neither blacks nor whites do when it comes to what they "misconstrue" to be racist is listen to what's going on. I will state that if people get the wrong idea then the crimerate will increase and it's too late to take the school away when that happens. Judge what you might gain by what you might lose.


That said, the rest of my veiwpoint was explained well by Mal and Reach, and IIRC the rules state that I cant repeat them, so I wont.

[devonin]

Carbo, you're lucky you don't get slapped with a racism ban for that post. It was absolutely trolling regardleess.