9th (and 10th?) Official Tournament -- D7 (and others?) Format Change?

[L.B.D.D]

i don't see why we should punish people for excelling in hard files while punishing them for not being consistent on easier files

that's essentially kicking somebody out of the tournament for a few goods on a 80-85 file when they can make up for that by beating others by a few goods on 85+ files

80-85 and 85+ is a big difference in terms of d7, and i'm sure it's been shown that the gap becomes pretty big in later rounds

[SK8R43]

Originally Posted by L.B.D.D

i don't see why we should punish people for excelling in hard files while punishing them for not being consistent on easier files

that's essentially kicking somebody out of the tournament for a few goods on a 80-85 file when they can make up for that by beating others by a few goods on 85+ files

80-85 and 85+ is a big difference in terms of d7, and i'm sure it's been shown that the gap becomes pretty big in later rounds

For once i agree with you. I mean im really good at higher end files but struggle with a BUNCH of lower level files.

This doesnt affect me in any way, but just saying lol

[TC_Halogen]

both sides have issues to me:

D7 cumulative: players that aren't balanced get the shot to make up on harder files when they didn't deserve to get past earlier rounds; that is a huge problem to me because it screws over those people that were able to do better on songs that their competitors could not -- I do agree that a faster player should do well in later rounds because the files will definitely get speedier/require more stamina, but I don't think they should be crowned the winner by blasting the last round file and doing less than optimal in the earlier rounds. Plus side: all players get to compete within the constraints of the tournament and compare themselves to others within the competition; that is a huge deal.

D7 Elimination: players can fall in a round due a minor error since D6+ tends to be relatively cutthroat early on; with a division that likely won't exceed 30 people, this stinks for higher level players. The inherent advantage that cumulative scoring has is that a high level player unable to achieve perfection gets multiple chances to improve their score. However, that advantage shouldn't outweigh the effort it takes for other players to maximize their scores early on.

That's why I feel like a hybrid between the two really is the best solution.

EDIT: @ Anaru: because the winner of a tournament/sport needs to be able to excel at all periods, not just one. That's why I'm not making it cumulative fully -- a player that struggles early on should not be given a full-on opportunity to blow people away at the end; it doesn't work that way. In regards to the "gap" between 80-85 files, that same gap exists later on, and players that excel in speed have an advantage because most 90+ files require extreme speed, and that isn't fair to those who are able to excel early on because they possess skill in technical files too.

As it is: people being booted out early on was going to happen initially, since the original plan was to make D7 a full-on elimination tournament.

[Doug31]

The way I see it, it'd be better if all the divisions didn't involve playing songs so easy that very many people can AAA. If the problem is people needing to AAA to move on in D7, then get harder D7 songs.

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by Doug31

The way I see it, it'd be better if all the divisions didn't involve playing songs so easy that very many people can AAA. If the problem is people needing to AAA to move on in D7, then get harder D7 songs.

You're not being mindful of the competitors, the tournament structure, or the game itself when you say this, though.

Not everyone in D7 is a ridiculously insane D7-level player that can AAA 90+ on command (or relatively quickly), there are players that are new to the seven division implementation of the official tournament. In addition to that, it is necessary to have a structure so that there is a gradual increase in difficulty to better suit all of the players -- the aim is to give all players a challenge at some point in the tournament, and not to give files that are technically challenging/rhythmically complex throughout the tournament, or not to give files that are ridiculously speedy/stamina draining throughout the tournament. Tournaments should be about balance. In the past: D6 had competitors that were able to AAA 90s, but they started with low 70s. The same holds true here: D7 is going to start a bit lower than what's necessary to hold them over, but gradually get closer and closer to what's necessary for separation of ranks.

Finally, you need to consider something: people outside of D7 are going to have to play these songs if they care about their ranks, and people inside of D7 are going to have these songs in public ranks to compete on. Putting them in tokens drops the playability by a lot because people don't put too much of an emphasis on their token ranks, and it also ruins the chance at D7 having new, difficult files to play. Bombing the tournament with nothing but hard songs is bad for everyone.

[Hakulyte]

I suggest to make the entire thing cumulative for D7.

Give a 12,5% value to each round since there's 8 rounds.

(raw score / perfect raw score) = X / 12,5% for each round. (you already get automated raw score values on leaderboard yey)

Add this value for every round until last round, it should give a final score on X/100.

The fast player can stay alive until the end and catch up on final rounds.
The accurate but slower player can AAA the few first rounds and take a decent advantage without getting all their hope ruined on last round.

In before /ignored.

[igotrhythm]

As someone that is recently scraping by in round 3 (Undiscovered Colors BF with 2g cutoff) and getting butt-bumped in round 4 (29-0-0-4 on Sleep, 3g cutoff), I probably won't see much of a change, but I like the idea of giving someone a chance to fight back from a bad round if it happens early on.

Encouraging participation is always a good thing. The lower divisions in particular, Round 1 is more of an activity check than anything.

[hi19hi19]

As a simfile artist, I vote for whatever format allows the most people to enjoy the files that are being added with this tournament.

I love non-elimination tournaments in general for this reason.

[Doug31]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

You're not being mindful of the competitors, the tournament structure, or the game itself when you say this, though.

Not everyone in D7 is a ridiculously insane D7-level player that can AAA 90+ on command (or relatively quickly), there are players that are new to the seven division implementation of the official tournament. In addition to that, it is necessary to have a structure so that there is a gradual increase in difficulty to better suit all of the players -- the aim is to give all players a challenge at some point in the tournament, and not to give files that are technically challenging/rhythmically complex throughout the tournament, or not to give files that are ridiculously speedy/stamina draining throughout the tournament. Tournaments should be about balance. In the past: D6 had competitors that were able to AAA 90s, but they started with low 70s. The same holds true here: D7 is going to start a bit lower than what's necessary to hold them over, but gradually get closer and closer to what's necessary for separation of ranks.

Finally, you need to consider something: people outside of D7 are going to have to play these songs if they care about their ranks, and people inside of D7 are going to have these songs in public ranks to compete on. Putting them in tokens drops the playability by a lot because people don't put too much of an emphasis on their token ranks, and it also ruins the chance at D7 having new, difficult files to play. Bombing the tournament with nothing but hard songs is bad for everyone.

I didn't mean like give them all files that are 95+ or anything like that. I just had in mind ones high enough that it wouldn't be an AAA battle. It still can be an increase in difficulty and tests players on both PA and speed. I feel this still does meet the things you're trying to accomplish while still not as badly forcing players to AAA or get eliminated.

As for the other players having to play those songs, I don't see what the big difference is compared to if they had to play ones that were 5-10 points of difficulty lower. They're still plenty hard for almost everyone.

I just remember when I was in an official tourney a long time ago, where the songs were just too easy. I got tired of songs where it was about 1 good or fewer to advance almost every single round. It never seemed like it really tested speed and it was hard to tell the true skill of a lot of the players.

[L.B.D.D]

yeah wtf, i don't wanna be out in round 2
have mercy guys

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by Doug31

I didn't mean like give them all files that are 95+ or anything like that. I just had in mind ones high enough that it wouldn't be an AAA battle.

...unfortunately, you're going to dip into the 90s to stop a lot of D7, thus flooding the game with a ton of extreme files.

[MixMasterLar]

I don't want to sound arrogant but the rounds are a week long. I don't see the issue with elim when you literary have an entire week to get your fingers in gear and move on.

Also:

I understand that people want to play and have fun for longer then one round, but in all seriousness, that's called a session or a gathering; this is a competition. We're here to see how far we can go before our skill drops out, to see just who is better, or how close/far everyone is to one another. I think that once you're main concern is making sure people get "fair time" in a tournament you undermined the concept.

Again, not trying to be an ass. This isn't affecting me one way or the other (D3 at most) and it's not my choice anyway, but that's how I feel tbh. that and the other points I made in my first post.

[Xiz]

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

As a simfile artist, I vote for whatever format allows the most people to enjoy the files that are being added with this tournament.

Oh my god this.


Hi19 for president of everything.

[omega_grunt666]

I don't see why it can't be cumulative over the course of the whole tournament (Or until Semis), Grand Prix style. 1st X points, 2nd y, 3rd z, 4-10 blah, 10-25 blah... and so on. If you rock out the hard files it gives you some wiggle room on the easier ones and vice-versa. What benefit is there to having elimination rounds? Alienating a few players because they ended up on the wrong side of a division cutoff? I'm with hi19, more participation and enjoying of some new files is for the best.

[xXOpkillerXx]

Basically all you're saying is that it's not possible to enjoy a file when you're eliminated from the tourney. Wtf lol I don't get that argument srsly plz explain thx...

[omega_grunt666]

Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx

Basically all you're saying is that it's not possible to enjoy a file when you're eliminated from the tourney. Wtf lol I don't get that argument srsly plz explain thx...

Well in a competitive manor, How would you feel if you get eliminated and then the next file you absolutely blow everyone's scores out of the water but yours doesn't count. Aside from tokens all these are available to the public, but being able to compete with others on a new file officially doesn't happen very often.

I still don't see a benefit to eliminating players, If we had a 4 division, or 15 division system the lines would be completely different along with the outcomes. Might as well let everyone have a chance to compete to the best of their abilities.

[Choofers]

it's a tournament

you have the chance to compete to the best of your abilities, and if someone out plays you, you get eliminated

[xXOpkillerXx]

Originally Posted by Choofers

it's a tournament

you have the chance to compete to the best of your abilities, and if someone out plays you, you get eliminated

This omfg. Look, in a competitive manor, I try to get rid of my threats, and when I get eliminated, I cheer for the remaining competitors. That's the fun of a tourney.

[omega_grunt666]

So theoretically, if there is a player better than you at every pattern but jacks, and a crucial song for moving forward contained a ton of jacks, they're out. It doesn't matter if they beat every score you post except that one, because of a single thing you can do slightly better they are out. Luck. If its the first elimination round they place poorly, if its the last they place second. The standing should not be affected by how lucky you got with the song order.

Where if you had a cumulative system, you drop a song early in the rounds, there is no way to make up for that without stomping a good portion of the remaining rounds (You can't slingshot, assuming the points are divided properly), but there is a hope. If you are actually top in your division, you will average the highest placements and get the most points, and win. Even if you are a middle of the pack player, you can still see X person scored this much better or worse than you and get a good idea of where you stand skill wise. Where if 40 people are eliminated in a round, all its saying is "these people couldn't do well on this single song".

Its less of a tournament and more roulette, hopefully you get placed in the lowest possible division, but if you just recently got moved up into D-x- there is little hope making it past the first round or two. I don't see why the push for eliminations, it just means you won't know who is actually the better well-rounded player. You just pray the songs line up with your individual strengths and you can play slightly better for your division because of it.

Elimination tournaments work great for games that can't be played out all at once, like pretty much every Esport (LoL/CS/Dota/ETC) because teams need to face each other in order to determine who is better. If every team had to face every team, they would take FOREVER. Because this tournament runs the same length with 5 people or 5,000,000 people since its deadline based, there is NO REASON it should be elimination. There is no downside for allowing everyone to compete to the very end, where as there are several problems running it as elim. (Luck based song order, Less players able to compete, etc)

I have yet to hear a single good argument for Elimination.

[HalfStep]

If your skillset is so imbalanced that you risk doing worse than half your division on a song, you don't deserve to win a tournament, even if you are the best at everything else.
(coming from someone with an imbalanced skillset)