TWG LXXXIX: Postgame

[FictionJunction]

social engineering isn't a strategy, tupac. It's what the game is about. No wonder you've never done anything prominent in a game before, you just follow people around.

[Brilliant Dynamite Neon]

[15:33] MegamnGTX: How'd I slip my role
[15:33] MegamnGTX:
[15:34] Darkmanticorex2: i talked to a bunch of people
[15:34] Darkmanticorex2: that said they talked to you
[15:34] Darkmanticorex2: and i was like
[15:34] Darkmanticorex2: wtf bdn's talking to people
[15:34] MegamnGTX: out of character heheh
[15:34] Darkmanticorex2: yeah
[15:34] Darkmanticorex2: and i knew the wolves
[15:34] Darkmanticorex2: so you had to be a blue

*cue game over*

[AC1speakerbox]

I started getting susp of Manti the second he got me lynched.

[tupacodaman]

Originally Posted by FictionJunction

social engineering isn't a strategy, tupac. It's what the game is about. No wonder you've never done anything prominent in a game before, you just follow people around.

correct me if i'm wrong but you always just get angry at people for no reason, try to vote them off, and don't talk to people much on AIM... and when have I just followed people around... do you even play games with me that often...

[tupacodaman]

and lol, just looked at your post from the first page. why did I get voted off then? didn't you guys get a good read that I wasn't a wolf? if you've played with me, I'm pretty active when I'm a human and try to come up with some plan of action. in this game, it just happens that everyone was obsessed with proving my idea "retarded" (which it wasn't) to the point where I could take very few of you seriously... as I said, it was just a suggestion for what the seer/psychic should do. I never asked to be the seered human, and I never said the seer/psychic should take my plan. but you guys just wanted to lynch someone and rush voted me for actually suggesting something instead of chilling and hoping "social engineering" would find the wolves.

I've only been seered once in a game where I was a wolf and don't think I have ever died in a game where I was a blue (though I may be mistaken). So I do know how to read people so as to not appear suspicious in those cases and know how to read others to determine if they're red or blue. So this game, fine, I messed up thinking manti was not a wolf. But we all did, or else we would have lynched him. end of story

obviously, player interactions are key to this game. but I will still go by "data" and "numbers" over player interactions... a 91% chance of success is much greater than the just slightly greater than chance chance you have for getting someone's color right through your talks with them. do you know how easy it is to just completely alter your "style" game to game? that's what makes these games so hard to play. especially when people get so angry over nothing. anger over the internet won't make people do anything but laugh at you... and it's not going to make people take you seriously, which is kind of important in this game

[Ruritsu]

Originally Posted by Makilaz

WOLVES WIN!

1. travman301 (rbennie362) WOLF
2. Ac1Speakerbox (Ac1Colossus) HUMAN
3. Clarinet89 (clarinet898) MASTER WOLF
4. Afrobean (Afrobean16) PSYCHIC
5. DarkManticoreX2 (DarkManticoreX2) WOLF
6. FictionJunction (FikshonJunkshon) HUMAN
7. Syhto (amanetora) HUMAN
8. A2P (awesome lamer) HUMAN
9. Ruritsu (Ruritsu) HUMAN
10. u84 (u8477) WOLF
11. sc979 (sam97379) HUMAN
12. Viccica (mmviccica) HUMAN
13. emerald000 (emerald3x0) HUMAN
14. tupacodaman (tupacodaman) HUMAN
15. Panda Express (helljumperdragon) HUMAN
16. BDN (megamngtx) SEER

LVP: ENTIRE HUMAN TEAM ARE BABY!

I absolutely had to do that.

We did play terrible >.>

I'll try harder next time. Feel bad for only having 2/4 wolf correctly named even after the insta happened. Oh and still not catching manti at that point =__='

[Syhto]

yes your strategy was retarded

[u84]

Awesome game. NOT!

Really, really ****ty humans. Pretty much just stayed back and watched it. Only a few people actually talked to me, 1 of which wasn't a fellow wolf. ****, guys, you made that too easy. I hate being a wolf in games like this. If I don't have to really fight to stay alive and/or win, it's not fun. I wish I were human..

[FictionJunction]

Originally Posted by tupacodaman

correct me if i'm wrong but you always just get angry at people for no reason, try to vote them off, and don't talk to people much on AIM...

wow, you're pretty ignorant.

[FictionJunction]

Originally Posted by tupacodaman

why was I killed lol

because people were too afraid to vote for manti. I knew you weren't a wolf but if lynching you one day will help me get manti lynched the next then you will die. And you did.

Learn to play beyond what you see upfront. This game plays on several levels you're clearly unaware of.

more on style, though. Your style reflects your personality and what you think of other players and the game itself. That kind of thing doesn't change over night. We're all green most of the time so that's what we come to expect from players when we talk to them mid-game. If someone strays from what I've come to expect from them then I am free to assume that they're red, blue or a green in an uncomfortable position. It's not a matter of being able to change your style freely, that won't make a difference. 'Style' isn't even the proper term for it. I think we've all come to know each other pretty well over the past two, three years, even if we haven't played TWG. This isn't about style. It's about what each and every one of us would do in any given situation.

p.s It's not our fault you guys couldn't see through manti. He's a pretty obvious wolf if you ask me.

This game is about emotion. Raw data is there to support or counter what we feel. BDN dying night1 is proof that we shouldn't take risks like it's nobody's business. Just stop arguing about your ****ing "strategy". It wasn't a strategy. It was an opinion. And it was wrong.

[FictionJunction]

I really hate it when tupac uses 'social engineering' in a sentence. I don't think he understands what it means.

[tupacodaman]

Originally Posted by FictionJunction

I really hate it when tupac uses 'social engineering' in a sentence. I don't think he understands what it means.

nope I don't get it at all

[Gun92]

This type of bickering really isn't necessary, nor will it produce results. Just drop it and move on so we can get a new game going and let this tragedy of a game die already.

[Afrobean]

Gonna start this with a post I typed up yesterday before the humans stupidly gave away the final day's wolf instawin without even requiring all of the wolves to participate. Here it is:

First, I'd like to point out the foolishness of backing manti instead of me just because he's manti. His ideas he was putting forth were wrong and many of you knew this, but many of you fell in line anyway. So many, in fact, that I was forced to also fall in line to not be lynched, even though I was more confident of A2P's humanity than of manti's (shame A2P wouldn't have been able to help me much if had come out to him instead). Do you see how stupid that is?

Second, yes, I came out to manti, but I had already made the observation that if he was red, the game was unwinnable, due to the sheep being unwilling to lynch their great leader. From my perspective, the only way I could win the game was if Manti was green, so I decided to just assume he was. No loss to coming out to him, since the game was already lost anyway. And it doesn't help things that manti was the only living player with a fully functioning brain stem during day 3 to notice that I was blue at that point without me even telling him. I wasn't going to live on through to day 4 no matter how I played it. And anyway, my only other alternative to avoid getting lynched day 3 would have been to publicly reveal myself. I did consider this, but I decided against it as it would ensure my dying that night. I figured that if manti was human (as I was forced to trust he was), I had a good shot at living through the night.

Third, why did no one recognize that the wolves shouldn't have killed me unless they knew I was blue, as to the untrained and unprivileged eye, it appeared as though I would still be a potential lynch. Manti revealing he knew I was blue should have implicated him in my death, and emerald revealing he knew as well should also have indicated he might have been behind my death (even though this idea is wrong). This is one of the few cases where the person who died can be a clue to who killed them and why, and you mooks failed to notice it!

Fourth, why do you people think I'm a wolf? I advised more than a few of you to go back and read an older game where I'm a wolf. The way I am here, this is not how I am as a wolf. And don't even pull the "oh well you might be changing your style!" No. I'm not that good of a wolf. Please, seriously, go to the history thread and look up any game where I was a wolf. They're all similar and they ALL are wildly different than my human personality. Even games where I won or managed to do something good as a wolf are still VERY different than my normal style. How about next game I act like this, instead of trying to kill me, you back me up blindly like many of you did for manti this game.

Fifth, you guys need to get better at playing the game. Not only at reading behavior and actions of other players, but in knowing your own behavior and actions. For example, Ac1 getting WAY defensive day 1 after a single vote and a pretty bad accusation from me. Going as far as saying "I'm voting for someone else just to save myself" when he was in no danger of dying at that point (had a single vote on him if I recall). Another example is tupac tying himself to manti. This wound up getting him killed, as I had figured manti as a wolf, and presumed that tupac being tied to him meant tupac was a wolf. Even before I had given up on trying to get manti lynched, I figured that tupac would be the better lynch (I only aimed to get manti lynched day 2 because I feared that it would be impossible later on in the game after myself and fiction and anyone else with confidence was dead). And when tupac came back human, it even made manti fall at least a few rungs on my suspect list.

Sixth, sorry for choosing such bad lynch targets early on, and being a contributing factor in A2P getting the lynch. I probably shouldn't apologize for this, however, since I wasn't the only one voting for Ac1 to die. All in all, I was able to truly identify two wolves correctly, u84 and manti, so I wouldn't say I did too badly. Would have rather been wrong about manti though, since him being a wolf led to us losing. And u84, he would have been my lynch choice on day 3 (if I hadn't almost been lynched) or 4 (if I hadn't been wolfed). I was almost completely confident in u84 for some reason, so much so that lynching him and the report saying 3 wolves wouldn't have helped me at all, so I was saving him for the "last day". Clarinet I was toying with being a wolf by the end of the last day there, but I didn't really consider it all that seriously. The last one, I forget who at the moment (writing this postgame post in advance of thread going up), I had instead been completely confident of his humanity from the beginning of the game. Ironically, talking to manti about suspects, he got me into seeing the angle where he could be a wolf, but again, even though I was toying with the idea by the end, I wasn't taking it too seriously. My serious pick was u84, manti, ruritsu and someone else. Before tupac died, he would have been the fourth haha.

And now that that's out there, I'll move on to the stuff I just typed up as responses:

Originally Posted by Makilaz

LVP goes to the ENTIRE HUMAN TEAM, for sucking hard. Yes, you lost the seer night one, but you could've still won if you didn't blindly follow anyone who was vocal enough to try to lead. Honorable mention goes to Afrobean for basically setting Manti up to live much longer than he should have. Also, the irony about you ranting about blues leading the humans to victory, and then failing to do so yourself was amazing.

**** you, bro. I was one of the few humans not doing stupid ****, and I identified two wolves. One of them I was killed before I could attempt to kill and the other was unkillable.

Manti didn't do **** really to justify his win, really, other than amassing a throng of clueless greens beneath him. The plebes were just too afraid to lynch their glorious leader, so no matter how many of us with brains could figure him out, we'd be unable to outnumber the blind and lynch him.

Originally Posted by tupac

afro, you need to learn to be less stubborn/less retarded.

Huh? I was retarded? I identified two wolves. You were lynched because you suck at this game (and in doing so, tied yourself to a wolf), not because I'm "retarded".

As for my stubbornness: most of the stubbornness I played with wasn't a detriment. But there was one area where I absolutely should have been stubborn that I wasn't. Manti. I should have stuck to my guns from day 2 on, even if it led to my death, since my death was apparently unavoidable.

Originally Posted by tupac

you should have asked for logs between that person and whoever he would claim to be seer.

#1: Why would a seer'd green come to me and reveal who the seer is? If the seer looked at me, he would come to me directly because I was blue. Remember: I was a different role than anyone else last game.

#2: Logs can easily be faked or staged. Two wolves could have a full real aim conversation but plot out a fake progression of the conversation in advance.

Originally Posted by tupac

your "social engineering" was a HUGE EPIC FAIL.

Considering my official guess on DAY TWO of the four wolves nailed two of them, I'd say I did a whole hell of a lot better than most at identifying wolves. Had I had a backing of sheep like manti, I might have been able to win this game.

Originally Posted by tupac

it's just downright wreckless to vote out the people who are offering the most sound strategy for humans

I pointed out ad nauseum how almost every seer plan manti was giving out was flat-out stupid. Sound strategy my ass.

Originally Posted by A2P

I had manti as a suspect

;_;

Where the **** were you day 2?

I'm really pissed a couple of you guys came out of the woodwork on day 3 when it was no longer my prerogative to lynch manti. Not that we would have been able to pull it off anyway, since manti would have just pulled his sheep team into line to throw someone else under the bus. And if his sheep weren't enough to save him, he still had 3 wolves who could assist in killing off me or you, A2P, instead.

Originally Posted by fiction

Manti said BDN slipped and gave away his role through his posts and conversations on AIM. I missed it.

Well then, Manti's full of **** because as soon as I died and he knew I learned all the roles, he was trying to skirt the rules to get me to reveal if the seer was alive or not or give unintentional hints as to who it is/was. You know, the kind of **** Tass used to do in the day. Not breaking the rules per se, but still trying to get around them. Oh wait. I forgot. None of you played back then and you're all completely unwilling to read old games too.

Originally Posted by tupac

didn't you guys get a good read that I wasn't a wolf?

The only thing I noticed was that you were tied to manti. I was confident that manti was a wolf, so I was confident that you were also a wolf since you were clearly paired on your end. Basically, I figured it was a wolf/wolf relationship, not a wolf/sheep one.

Originally Posted by tupac

[i] know how to read others to determine if they're red or blue

How many wolves did you identify? We all know you clearly missed manti, but did you get even ONE of the others right?

Originally Posted by tupac

So this game, fine, I messed up thinking manti was not a wolf. But we all did, or else we would have lynched him.

No... there were plenty among us who were suspicious of him, just that neutral people plus his team of sheep outnumbered those of us who were confident enough to vote for him.

Originally Posted by tupac

but I will still go by "data" and "numbers" over player interactions... a 91% chance of success is much greater than the just slightly greater than chance chance you have for getting someone's color right through your talks with them.

I identified 2 wolves using basic social engineering. None of my psychic reports helped me identify a wolf. In fact, it hurt me in two cases. First, when you, tupac, returned green, it made manti drop down on my list of suspects, when without it, I probably would have still been hard on manti (lol) the next day. On top of this, my erratic actions on my final day tipped my hand and manti identified me as blue without me even telling him, meaning my being blue literally got me killed. Had I been green during this game instead of blue, I actually would have been better off.

[FictionJunction]

manti's relationship with tupac was clearly wolf-sheep. I considered both of them being wolves but I don't think manti would have let tupac be so vocal had that been the case. Manti is very on top of his wolf game despite his inability to play below the radar. Allowing tupac to be vocal would bring unnecessary attention to both of them. I really doubt manti would allow that sort of behaviour in his team. I was really surprised when you told me your suspicion of manti dropped substantially when you learned of tupac's color.

I also considered tupac being the only of wolf out of the two.. but that would imply that he was using manti and that was clearly not the case. It was quite the opposite, in fact.

Tupac died because we needed to get to manti. Baby steps for the other players, if anything.

[Panda Express]

So that was a really bad first game for me, I feel like such a disappointment D:

My theories were completely off, and my suspicions were baseless. (Although I suspected Clari of wolf from the start because she was the first to always ask me anything, but I shrugged this off as kindness :P)

[travman301]

Woah I was in this game? XD My bad....

I didn't expect to get subbed in. There were like 5 people ahead of me.

[Makilaz]

Originally Posted by travman301

Woah I was in this game? XD My bad....

I didn't expect to get subbed in. There were like 5 people ahead of me.

All but one person were subbed in already. The last person ahead of you also hadn't logged in for about a week.

[clarinet89]

I usually talk to new players and subbed in players right away regardless of what role I am.

I also feel that had I been human, I probably would have leaned toward the afro side of the arguments. But who knows what manti would have tried to do to me, so idk.

[DarkManticoreX2]

I'll admit, Fic knows my wolf game too well and Afro was able to pretty much able to pick me out.

I used the risk strategy to garner support, and I got Tupac and emerald from it, as well as a couple other people who agreed, but were unwilling to put full faith behind me (A2P), (Vic).

Using Emerald and Tupac, I was able to manipulate them and use them for additional votes and suspects, and i got you guys to pick them off instead of myself