Is it wrong to be gay?

[fido123]

Originally Posted by Squirm

Why do you think it's so right to be gay?

Because there's nothing wrong with it

Originally Posted by Squirm

Were you hurt so bad by the opposite sex that you're getting so offended by what I said, or are you mad that I'm not going along with what you people have to say? Either way, you’re getting mad that we that don’t accept you people.

As a kid I never had any relationships, and I was never hurt by the opposite sex. I'm getting kinda pissed because you have a stance that seems to be uneducated and holds no ground yet you hold it so strongly.

Originally Posted by Squirm

Who needs statistical information to know it's wrong and not the way we were born to be? Is it right for two penises to be clashing together? Is it right for two vagina’s to be only rubbing against each other? No, it’s not right!

Tell me why it's wrong do you just find those two ideas personally repulsive? If there's no reason as to why it's wrong there's no reason for anybody to listen to your uneducated misguided biased opinion.

Originally Posted by Squirm

I have no idea what it took to convince yourself that it’s actually right to be that way, but you’re wrong.

I have no idea as to why you've convinced yourself it's wrong with no logical reasoning.

Originally Posted by Squirm

Yeah you may say that the person makes you happy or complete, but you people obviously had something happen that made you that way and you just aren’t admitting it. I know at points in your life you think to yourself ‘what if?’, and that question alone shows that your instincts are telling you it’s wrong, but you try so hard to push that away by making yourself believe it’s right.

Actually when I found out I was gay at 16 I was pushed into a depression because I honestly really don't want to be gay, and to this day I don't want to be gay because of people's uneducated, illogical stances such as yours. I try to push myself to be heterosexual so I can perhaps have my own kids one day.


I'd really like to have a civil debate with you about this. I only ask that you keep an open mind and understand that nobody is going to take you seriously unless you have logical arguments. What is in fact wrong with two men or women loving each-other? What are it's negative impacts? Also out of curiosity if you met a gay guy, he didn't flaunt it and you honestly wouldn't know otherwise, would you shun him just for being gay completely or just disagree with his lifestyle?

[Chrissi]

Squirm is one of the people who, as I mentioned earlier, focuses on the sex act and how he finds it repulsive, and concludes that because the sex act is repulsive, homosexuality is wrong.

He has a problem with the way he views sex - he's unnaturally obsessed with sex acts and can vividly see them whenever he thinks of them. Thinking of gay sex makes him squirm and gives him a moral outrage that he thinks is justifiable and should be naturally seen by others.

Squirm, the fact that you find gay sex disgusting does NOT mean homosexuality is wrong. It means one of two things...

The first option is that you are straight and you don't like gay sex. That's fine. But just because you don't like gay sex doesn't mean NOBODY can like it, or that it's wrong to like it. It's like if you only liked chocolate ice cream and HATED vanilla, and so you thought that everyone who likes vanilla is a terrible, terrible person and should not exist. It's just bizarre.

The second option is that you're secretly gay and are scared of it. I think this one is more likely but have no way of proving it.

Either way, enjoy your disgusting mental images, it isn't going to make homosexuality wrong and it will never go away! Homosexuality is innately morally just, because it harms no one. It has no way of harming anyone. Ever. Unless you consider being gay "harm", which is a pretty bizarre definition of harm.

[MayneWithoutModem]

all of those homosexual animals that have been observed in nature for thousands of years obviously had something happen to them which caused them to want to become gay. right squirm?

-blazze

[fido123]

Originally Posted by Chrissi

The second option is that you're secretly gay and are scared of it. I think this one is more likely but have no way of proving it.

This happens more often than you think. Back before I found out I was gay I was a blaintant homophobe.

[Cavernio]

Squirm makes a point that people are almost getting to, but doesn't seem to me like they quite are. No, homosexuality doesn't produce offspring, and therefore there's likely something 'wrong'. If there exist other animals in nature that are also homosexual, this does not change that fact at all as nature's not perfect. Maybe its wrong to have sex and not have kids, because its not spreading more life around. In which case condoms and the pill and other such things you would also consider wrong.
Where the issue lies is with the 'wrong' part.
What we as people consider to be right or wrong has to be defined somehow. Most people will define something 'wrong' being when people get hurt, and something 'right' when enjoyment happens all around. If you agree with those definitions of right and wrong, then you have to realize that whatever nature intended is largely irrelevant. Homosexuality doesn't really hurt anyone, except for making you outraged apparently. Of course, then comes the question 'well it makes me morally hurt, therefore you shouldn't do it'. It really is a perfectly valid statement, however when we examine this further, there's 2 more things to consider. You being morally hurt by someone else's sexual activities and lifestyle 1) has very little impact on you personally, except when you get into discussions about it. Even if you had 10 gay neighbours, if you didn't talk about it to them, nothing would really be different in your life. And 2) if people bowed to your way of thinking, that you are morally hurt by homosexuality, you would be having a much larger negative impact on the lives of homosexuals, by not allowing themselves the pleasure of sexy times, love, intimacy, and that 'feeling of being complete'. Your pain of having to deal with 'being gay is ok' is tiny compared to the wonderfulness of being able to be yourself and the pain of not being able to be yourself. Furthermore, in time, you're likely to get used to homosexuality, making your pain disappear, whereas its damned hard to ignore one's own apparently hard-wired sexuality.

If you don't agree to what I've defined as right and wrong though, I dunno what to say to you. Morality has to have some sort of common ground to stand on. I suppose if you're going to go with 'what I feel is right must be right' for questions of morality, then for me at least, all sex would be wrong, I would try to not enjoy that guilty pleasure, and children would be the spawn of something terrible.

It's neither right nor wrong to be homosexual, it just is, and there's really no reason to try and stop it.

[Cavernio]

As to the discussions that homosexuality denies life...you'd be surprised that studies actually support such things in nature. For instance, if you overcrowd most rodent species, you find much higher rates of homosexuality. That makes total sense to me: the animal still gets sexual pleasure, but they're not going to kill the population or bring more suffering into being by having kids.
In humans, there's actually studies that show that guys are more likely to be homosexual when they have older brothers. For any type of heirarchical male dominated society, (which seems likely there was in our long-ago past) this could also make a lot of sense.

[iamgoodhehe]

The ONLY way for it to be wrong to be gay is if you had a religion where it was basically a sin. Otherwise, it doesn't matter what the hell anyone says, be gay.

[Cavernio]

Chrissi: Maybe I didn't read what you said they way you meant it, but I think you've said that pedophilia is not a choice, but that homo vs heterosexuality is. I don't understand how you could think this, unless like I said, I misunderstood you.

[Chrissi]

No, I didn't say that, Cavernio. What I said is that saying it isn't a choice isn't a very good defense, regardless of whether it's a choice or not. I'm not saying that being gay is a choice someone makes. Of course not. Who would make such a ridiculous choice. "I'm going to be attracted to the same gender now!!!".... yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that lots of things aren't your choice, but that doesn't make them good or okay. Like pedophilia. I'm sure pedophiles aren't like "Yeah!! I'm gonna be attracted to kids now!!" That's ridiculous. They just find themselves attracted to them. But nobody would say that pedophilia is okay because it isn't a choice.

I'm basically arguing for consistency. If you're going to say "Homosexuality is okay because it isn't a choice", you need to apply that "okay" to everything else that isn't a choice. Since you can't (eg pedophilia), it doesn't make for a good defense. You can't apply it consistently.

[rushyrulz]

Being a pedophile is illegal. Being homosexual is not.

[Chrissi]

Wonderful. I'm not equating pedophilia with homosexuality. I'm saying the rationale that person was using doesn't work, because he can't apply it consistently. If it's okay to be homosexual because it's not a choice, then it's okay to be a pedophile because it's not a choice. It's not okay to be a pedophile, so the reasoning doesn't hold.

[Etylukah]

I don't understand this debate. In my head it's like you were asking me if it was right to be white or black except that instead of talking about race we're talking about a mindset generated by genes. I mean, we don't have control of what happens to us before we were born, why should some people be penalized for it?

I don't exactly believe in this type of right and wrong too. I just think that there's actions that creates consequences.
Something right or wrong should be about what you do and what you don't do, not something you are or not.
Otherwise Cavernio pretty much explained the other right/wrong aspect possibilities. (but it's typically more a moral aspect than rational which is also important)

You could be born as a pedophile, if you manage to not do any actions that would creates "wrong" consequences you should be fine regardless.
I'm just failing to comprehend what could be wrong with homosexuality from an impartial/rational point of view. It seems to be more a question of morals/ethics.. and even there, it would still be more right than wrong. I guess society in general just need more time to adjust?

[Chrissi]

So are you saying that pedophiles are normal functioning members of society as long as they can keep their hands off kids?

That's an interesting notion. I guess it could be true.

[Iam90]

Originally Posted by Chrissi

So are you saying that pedophiles are normal functioning members of society as long as they can keep their hands off kids?

That's an interesting notion. I guess it could be true.

is that really such a bizarre notion??

i mean, given that we have no putative cure for pedophilia, the primary goals of sex rehabilitation programs for sex offenders is to control their urges, not to outright eliminate them

now, whether that be efficacious is another question; it is, of course, remarkably ineffective. but CHOICE does matter - we don't PROSECUTE pedophiles for BEING pedophiles - we prosecute them for committing sex offenses.

you are wrong in your assessment because you assume that we criminalize pedophilia. we don't criminalize urges or attractions (at least, not yet - i hope it stays that way), we criminalize actions and offenses. that's because there's an underlying ethical assumption that culpability can't exist if there's no choice involved

[fido123]

There's nothing wrong with being attracted to kids, but it's wrong to then go out and do sexual things with kids. Look at it in it's simplest form...what is it going to hurt if somebody simply finds kids attractive? Yes it COULD lead to other things but that depends largely on the person, just look at the attraction alone. If somebody told me they had a thing for kids I wouldn't even loose an ounce of respect for them, however I would loose all respect for them if they molested one.

[Chrissi]

Yeah, you're right. I actually was hoping someone would bring this angle up and flesh it out since I couldn't really see past my own point that nobody was arguing against.

[Iam90]

it is a difficult issue though (although not quite pertinent to this thread)

i mean, we can't in good conscience prosecute pedophile's for their attractions alone but given the extremely high rate of acting upon those urges... are there anymore preventative measures we could do to keep kids safe (this applies to sex offenders in general) without breaching their personal freedoms?

the topic is like the psychological/ethical equivalent of isreal/palestine to me; there is just no easy solution, if one at all (at least right now)

[fido123]

Would you want to live in a country where it was illegal to think something? I'm sure a lot of people find kids attractive, but tell no-one, or act upon it. The only cases you hear about are the ones where somebody has done something to draw media attention.

[Rubin0]

I believe that there are A LOT of pedophiles that have stayed under the radar their entire lives. I think they are living normal lives and suppressing their attraction to children. I still don't like the idea of comparing gays to pedophiles. I do however believe that pedophiles cannot control their attraction...whether they act on it is a completely different story. I also believe that there will never be a place for pedophiles in society. It should never be accepted as a sexual orientation. Homosexuality, while differing from the "norm" is harmless in that it is between two consenting individuals. Children cannot and should never be expected to consent to sex.

[Cavernio]

Upon the topic of pedophilia, I saw on some news station just like 2 days ago that a book regarding pedophilia was banned from being sold electronically for kindles or something. I think the purpose of the book was like a way in which to be a pedophile in our society without it being a problem, but having not read the book I have no idea how far that went, like if it discussed actual sex practices with kids or not. It showed a 2 second blurb with the author, and he was a pitiable man who seemed to really fall in love with kids.
I think we can compare pedophilia with homosexuality on some level in that I bet many closet gays who've been raised that homosexuality is wrong probably feel like their sexual urges are as wrong as if they were pedophiles. I also think that a discussion about whether pedophilia is wrong is much more interesting than if homosexuality is wrong :-p Consent seems to be the issue at hand, but what is it about, say, a 10 year old who may even have started getting her period already and who has sexual urges, not able to consent to sex? There's obviously an age at which there's no understanding about what's going on, but what about older children? If it were regular practice for sex to happen with kids if they consented (or at least said they consented), would it still be emotionally scarring? I swear I've heard somewhere of some african cultures or whatever where kids mimic sex with each other, just like any other mimicry kids do. Outwardly I don't think anyone found anything traumatic to these kids.