Conflict of BPM choice?

[zebdal the legend]

Above all, I do not wish to quarrel with whoever it is.
And I have a bad english, so there is a lot of google trad.
No trolling please.

You all know what it is like the BPM: the beatings per minut.
It is the measurement system which was created there are centuries (used by the pianists).
We used a metronome to play musics the piano to certain BPM, it was then enough to adjust the metronome to certain BPM, and that was great.
DDR uses this system of BPM to make arrows' speed more or less quickly.
We shall note in the passage that except for some cases of stylistic effects, the BPM put on a stepchart is the original one of the music.
The game was made such as it looks like a music partition, IE: color codes, the measures, the long and short notes, etc....

Now on stepmania, a new concept was invented (by the players), that to put the BPM near 150-300 whatever is the BPM of origin of the music.
Indeed, people noticed that by doubling by 2 or by dividing by 2 the bpm of origin of the music, we could obtain synced arrows with the song.
For example, if we divide by 2 the BPM then arrows distances will be really low, if we multiply it by 2, the opposite.
People thus divide wildly the BPM of origin of a just simfile to see red and blue arrows, because it is more attractive.
what is the problem?
We are saying that a speedcore song with 800bpm is equal to a 200bpm song, while a music in 200 bpm, we can only consider it as a hardcore or techno song.
By dividing by 2 the BPM, we modify the partition (stepchart ) so that it is syncro with the new BPM, but in itself, the partition is not the one of origin, thus it is false.
Those who say " in the pentagon, the argument "chaos" would be more representative " are wrong.
Why?
We force to put blue arrows there where the music has only red arrows.
Then, there are people who use this rule to return everything in 200BPM but who nevertheless, in certain cases use another rule, that to put the BPM to that indicated on the title. Indeed, they are going to put 960 BPM speedcore in 960 BPM, only because it's written 960 in the title there.
If it was written the other thing, for example " ****ing hard speedcore ", they would have put the BPM to 240 or 120.
Thus what means that even if they know the BPM of origin of the music, as long as they do not know the title of the music, the simfile has 2 possible BPM (see the schrodinger's cat on wikipedia).
I find that it is totally absurd to define a BPM so because, a speedcore music was created to be really fast, and we decrease it in a simfile of 200BPM only so that is more kawaii.
Let us call back that 90 % of the players play in CMOD and that the fact that the sim goes in 200BPM or to 800 BPM has no importance, it is thus stupid to change the BPM of origin of a simfile so that it is more playable.

Then there is an argument that it is easier to step if the simfile is near 200BPM.
It is false, there is absolutely no difference, even it is sometimes easier, for the reason than we do not piss off with yellow and orange arrows or we are obliged to stretch as a patient the measure to see something there.
And also, a music in 400BPM having 64th, if we make it pass in 200BPM, it would be necessary to change 64th into 128th, now 128th does not exist on stepmania.

Now, let us speak about xmod rows
on xmod, we do not absolutely respect the original BPM of the music because we make it vary wildly, we give it even negative BPM o_O.
But is this a problem? NO
Why?
Xmod rows were created to have a particular stylistic effect, and, even if we do not respect the BPM of the music we create an atmosphere which it respects completely the music.
On the other hand, on a xmod, there is always a recurring BPM, that where arrows go to a constant speed.
And it is thus the one this that it is necessary to put in the good speed.
If we look goblinz who is at 150 BPM, this is the original BPM of the song.
But if the same simfile had 300BPM, people will put a lower BPM.
And that wil be the same problem.

I am aware that those who make this, it is to allow to play better.
But they do not understand that by leaving the original BPM, we don't low the quality of a simfile.
No, we reveal all its real nature. If it is fast, we make a fast simfile, if it is very slow, we make a very slow simfile.
In what it raise problem to put the original BPM of the music? Why just don't you leave it?
Stepmaniards are in some years scoffing at centuries of reflection on the speed measure of the musics, only to see blue arrows. Waah, blu arow zar biutifful.
We even came there to quarrel on quite a lot of forums and the others with people who say " this sim is 400 BPM " " not, this is 200 ".
I even found a website which referenced the original BPM of the musics.
I fell on a lad who had enjoyed putting 400BPM on the musics of dragonforce while the original BPM is 200 BPM.
Do you imagine guitarists who play at 400 BPM? That would be gods.
Even the fastest to the world does not exceed 350 BPM.
Thus it is completely insane to say that guitarists play 400 BPM.
We are changing completely things which would never have to be changed.
If we had not let people change the BPM of the songs, we would not have arrived there there.
The rhythm games (except stepmania) respect the original BPM of the songs.
Then why not you?

You were able to realize whom I was against the fact to put a false BPM.

You too can expose your opinion on this subject.
I think that it is important that a topic like this is opened to clarify some things.
On the other hand, I am waiting for real arguments.

[Archelos]

Originally Posted by zebdal the legend

I have a bad english

Yeah, yeah you do.

Originally Posted by zebdal the legend

People thus divide wildly the BPM of origin of a just simfile to see red and blue arrows, because it is more attractive.

It's not that the arrows are "more attractive" this way, it's that it's easier for people to read 16th stream rather than 8th or 32nd or whatever else because 16th stream is the most common, and because the colors aren't hell. I personally think 32nd stream looks like garbage. If you were to give me a 16th stream and a 32nd stream with exactly the same patterns, I'd probably perform better on the 16th stream version.

Originally Posted by zebdal the legend

what is the problem?
We are saying that a speedcore song with 800bpm is equal to a 200bpm song, while a music in 200 bpm, we can only consider it as a hardcore or techno song.
By dividing by 2 the BPM, we modify the partition (stepchart ) so that it is syncro with the new BPM, but in itself, the partition is not the one of origin, thus it is false.

You're assuming we care that something is a certain *BPM*. I know I personally don't. I don't give a **** what *BPM* something is per se; I only care how fast I have to move my fingers. 200 BPM 16th is exactly the same speed as 100 BPM 32nd. So, who really cares?

Originally Posted by zebdal the legend

And also, a music in 400BPM having 64th, if we make it pass in 200BPM, it would be necessary to change 64th into 128th, now 128th does not exist on stepmania.

Yes it does. You can do virtually any timing by editing the notepad file. You would simply double the amount of rows of 0s you have, and space everything out twice as far. Then you'd put your 128ths in every other new row.

Originally Posted by zebdal the legend

Now, let us speak about xmod rows
on xmod, we do not absolutely respect the original BPM of the music because we make it vary wildly, we give it even negative BPM o_O.
But is this a problem? NO
Why?
Xmod rows were created to have a particular stylistic effect, and, even if we do not respect the BPM of the music we create an atmosphere which it respects completely the music.
On the other hand, on a xmod, there is always a recurring BPM, that where arrows go to a constant speed.
And it is thus the one this that it is necessary to put in the good speed.
If we look goblinz who is at 150 BPM, this is the original BPM of the song.
But if the same simfile had 300BPM, people will put a lower BPM.
And that wil be the same problem.

I have absolutely no ****ing idea what you said here. What I got from it, though, is this:

"It's not okay to change BPM! Oh wait it's okay to do it IF YOU'RE USING XMOD."

Honestly, what is your whole argument about if you're going to say it's okay to employ tricks for an XMOD player and not a CMOD player? That's pretty ****ing biased. Of course feel free to correct me if I translated your hideous English incorrectly.

Originally Posted by zebdal the legend

Stepmaniards is in some years scoffing at centuries of reflection on the measure of speed of the musics, only to see blue arrows. Waah, blu arow zar biutifful.

Again, who gives a ****? Like you said, 90% of people play CMOD. 90% of people don't know the damn difference other than how fast their hands are moving, and whether or not their eyes are bleeding trying to see through a stream of ALL RED ARROWS.

Originally Posted by zebdal the legend

I fell on a lad who had enjoyed putting 400BPM on the musics of dragonforce while the original BPM is 200 BPM.
You imagine yourselves guitarists to play 400 BPM? That would be gods.
Even the fastest to the world does not exceed 350 BPM.
Thus it is completely insane to say that guitarists play 400 BPM.
We are changing completely things which would never have to be changed.

Again, you're putting too much importance on a number that just doesn't bear enough weight on how people enjoy this game. I don't think musicians are turning over in their graves because a number has been changed to make a video game more fun. It's not like we're going around trying to rewrite their legacies. It's a damn game.

Originally Posted by zebdal the legend

If we had not let people change the BPM of the songs, we would not have arrived there there.

If we had not let people change the BPM of songs... how the hell would we sync anything? You think Stepmania is just gonna come up with the right BPM... out of thin air? Yeah, trust me, WE ALL WISH.

Originally Posted by zebdal the legend

The rhythm games (except stepmania) respect the original BPM of the songs.
Then why not you?

Because it's just not that important. Oh, and just so you know, I double BPM all the time if I'm stepping something that's turning out to be 32nd stream.

[zebdal the legend]

for xmod, i wanted to say:

in a xmod file, there is some moments where the BPM doesn't change, like the beginning of glitchcraft. And at this moment, it should be the exact BPM (like CMOD files).

I don't think musicians are turning over in their graves because a number has been changed to make a video game more fun. It's not like we're going around trying to rewrite their legacies. It's a damn game.

yeah, I just explain my opinions with somes images.

Also, the ones who play with a 1-coloured-noteskin (like me) don't see the differences between 8th and 16th. So for them, the colour is not really important, and there is only the BPM who is really important.
I play with the 3.9 default noteskin.

Yes it does. You can do virtually any timing by editing the notepad file. You would simply double the amount of rows of 0s you have, and space everything out twice as far. Then you'd put your 128ths in every other new row.

I know, but not all people know that.
Some people only use the stepmania level editor for their simfile.

[Archelos]

Originally Posted by zebdal the legend

in a xmod file, there is some moments where the BPM doesn't change, like the beginning of glitchcraft. And at this moment, it should be the exact BPM (like CMOD files).

Right, okay. That's a given. But what about the rest of it? Am I right when I translated that you said it's okay to put BPM tricks in your XMOD files because it gives them a feel? You said:

"Xmod rows were created to have a particular stylistic effect, and, even if we do not respect the BPM of the music we create an atmosphere which it respects completely the music.

So, in the underlined section, you basically said it's okay not to respect the BPM of the music because it creates an "atmosphere that respects the music". Could you define that, please? It sounds to be like you're basically saying "it's okay for XMOD players to do what they want with BPM changes but not CMOD players" which makes the whole argument moot.

Originally Posted by zebdal the legend

Also, the ones who play with a 1-coloured-noteskin (like me) don't see the differences between 8th and 16th. So for them, the colour is not really important, and there is only the BPM who is really important.

So you came over here as someone who plays with one color and tried to tell people who play with multiple colors what they should look at? Are you serious? That's like me watching only romantic comedies and then going over to a group of horror movie fans and trying to tell them how they should enjoy their movies. You can't appreciate or understand the value of a colored noteskin because you don't use one, so who are you to tell us what we should do with it? It's no wonder you're dissing the use of colors so much.

Originally Posted by zebdal the legend

Some people only use the stepmania level editor for their simfile.

Okay... your point? You said "a music in 400BPM having 64th, if we make it pass in 200BPM, it would be necessary to change 64th into 128th, now 128th does not exist on stepmania" as if this were some kind of reason NOT to change BPMs. But if there is a solution to this THAT YOU KNEW ABOUT, why did you use it as a reason? It's quite obviously not one and you knew that.

[zebdal the legend]

for example, some songs like "harder, better, faster, stronger" have some break effects that they can be represented by a BPM change.
lot of breakcore songs too.

[dag12]

I agree to some extent with what you are saying; however, I have to object to some things.

You stated:

Originally Posted by zebdal the legend

Let us call back that 90 % of the players play in CMOD and that the fact that the sim goes in 200BPM or to 800 BPM has no importance, it is thus stupid to change the BPM of origin of a simfile so that it is more playable.

I'm confused about this point. Isn't the point of BPM to accurately emulate the file? If so, doesn't Cmod destroy the point of setting high/low/'accurate' BPMs, if everything is constant? And because it does make everything the same BPM, why not make it more readable, for the sake of the player, if the 'actual' BPM does not have any effect anyway?

I think that beyond representing 1/4th, 1/8th, etc, the colors of the notes have the purpose of making the stepfile more readable. Yes, a 400 BPM speedcore might be technically correct, but it also runs the risk of having every single note red and unreadable. Personally, since I play on Cmod anyway, I would prefer that the stepfile be readable rather than be technically accurate.

In addition, if you are going to play on a xmod, then a wide range of BPMs (like you said, even up to 400 BPMs) instead of around 100-250 or so, would create a slight problem. Such a big variation in BPMs would create a need for much more specific xmods rather than the usual 2x, 3x, 4x, and so on. I think standardizing the BPMs makes it more convenient for the player.

Basically, it waters down to this, I think. In a nutshell, you are arguing that the song's BPM should accurately reflect the 'actual' BPM of the song, no? However, to what extent should we reflect the 'actual' BPM, knowing that it could potentially cause inconvenience to the player?

I think it's analogous to stepfiles. You can make the stepfiles 'technically' accurate, but I think good stepfile artists should know the fine line as to when to make the patterns more friendly, etc. for the sake of the player and not just the music.

Furthermore, (this is an honest question) how can we know for sure the 'actual' BPM of a song and not just one of its multiples (100 BPM instead of 200, 400, etc.)? I understand what you are saying about guitars, that it would be insane to play at400 BPM. But how can we tell for other songs what their BPMs are? Do we classify it based off our knowledge of the general BPMs for a certain genre?
I recall that even programs such as mixmeister accidentally half the BPM (such as in sharpnel songs). However, we know to double the BPM because sharpnel songs generally fall in the 200 range. So, is there a systematic way to determine the BPM? The mixmeister program knows nothing about a genre or the artist, and simply analyzes it. And yet, sometimes it even gets the 'wrong' BPM. So, as an inexperienced stepartist myself, how can I tell the BPM? Based off of my personal judgment, or based off of what pure analysis has given me?

[zebdal the legend]

Furthermore, (this is an honest question) how can we know for sure the 'actual' BPM of a song and not just one of its multiples (100 BPM instead of 200, 400, etc.)?

....

But how can we tell for other songs what their BPMs are? Do we classify it based off our knowledge of the general BPMs for a certain genre?

....

So, is there a systematic way to determine the BPM? The mixmeister program knows nothing about a genre or the artist, and simply analyzes it. And yet, sometimes it even gets the 'wrong' BPM. So, as an inexperienced stepartist myself, how can I tell the BPM? Based off of my personal judgment, or based off of what pure analysis has given me?

that's a great question.
In a measure, there is 4 beats.
so, a beat is a red arrow on stepmania.
A cycle has 4 measures.
if you knows what is a cycle, you can find if it's 100, 200 or 400 because there is 16 beats on a cycle.
but how newbies can know that? They can't.
I had the same experience than you.
I think, doing an official tutorial of syncing simfiles will be good for helping them.
After that, you'll just have to post the link for players who does this error.
I know that's undoable, but we can already do it for packs submissions.

So you came over here as someone who plays with one color and tried to tell people who play with multiple colors what they should look at? Are you serious?

I usually play with 1 color but I played with multiple colors before, so I know the spirit of playing with multiple colors too.
My entire post is not posted for only players who play with 1-color, I just say that for these players, this is one more reason to have the correct BPM.

[Archelos]

Originally Posted by zebdal the legend

My entire post is not posted for only players who play with 1-color, I just say that for these players, this is one more reason to have the correct BPM.

Except it's not because with only one color you can't tell if something was supposed to be "16th" or "8th" or whatever else because it's all one color to you anyway. So I fail to see how it makes it a good reason to have the correct BPM when you will literally never know the difference.

[zebdal the legend]

Okay... your point? You said "a music in 400BPM having 64th, if we make it pass in 200BPM, it would be necessary to change 64th into 128th, now 128th does not exist on stepmania" as if this were some kind of reason NOT to change BPMs. But if there is a solution to this THAT YOU KNEW ABOUT, why did you use it as a reason? It's quite obviously not one and you knew that.

I think newbies who will see this topic will think "oh my god, I didn't know that I could put 128th on my sims".
That's why I've posted it as a reason.

[dag12]

Well, on another note however, I don't think newbies would be concerned with being able to place 128ths in sims. Or rather, they shouldn't care about such small denominations. Once again, I still think that 'newbies', or in fact most people, would be more concerned about the playability of the file.

[Archelos]

Originally Posted by zebdal the legend

I think newbies who will see this topic will think "oh my god, I didn't know that I could put 128th on my sims".
That's why I've posted it as a reason.

You posted that to backup your argument... because you were thinking about newbies? What do newbies have to do with your argument?

Yeah, I'm not even taking this seriously anymore.

EDIT: You know what, that response is a load of bull****. You flat out said in your original post that Stepmania CANNOT do 128ths. If you were posting that "to help the newbies", why didn't you post the notepad solution I posted about? You didn't talk about any of that.

Yeah, you were just trying to get one more reason behind your argument. I don't believe for a second you had newbies in mind at all when you posted that.

[Patashu]

Most of the time I set the bpm so that the most common note interval of the file is 16ths, or 24ths if it's swung. I don't like 12ths because the colouring isn't very useful; same for 8ths. That's all that matters, really; having the bpm high enough to accurately sync any unusual samples or solos and than choosing the bpm(s) that give useful or nice colours.

[zebdal the legend]

you can also change or edit your noteskin

[trumaestro]

stepmania essays

i just use whatever bpm makes sense for any given part of music. that generally results in 16ths 24ths 12ths and whatever bursts i put in.

besides i doubt anybody really cares what bpm(s) you use as long as it's on sync

[icontrolyourworld]

i would think that when the arrows average out to a 16th beat note, that would be the bpm.

[dore]

I bob my head. If I bob my head in half time, I'll step it in half time. If I bob my head in normal time, that's how I step it. I use different BPMs to generate a feel more so than using technical accuracy. It doesn't really matter in the long run but it's one way to give an interpretation of a musical passage.

[randomdragoon]

Originally Posted by dore

I bob my head. If I bob my head in half time, I'll step it in half time. If I bob my head in normal time, that's how I step it. I use different BPMs to generate a feel more so than using technical accuracy. It doesn't really matter in the long run but it's one way to give an interpretation of a musical passage.

Corollary: If you bob your head at 800 bpm you get a massive headache

[meno_rocks123]

Originally Posted by randomdragoon

Corollary: If you bob your head at 800 bpm you get a massive headache

gj reading the whole post.

[tofurox]

AAAAAHHHH too much text.

[robertsona]

If it is too much text, don't post saying it is. That is considered postwhoring.